22-250 on MoD ranges

[duey]

right guys, I seem to remember that a 22-250 falls outside the permitted allowances for MoD ranges, not on energy but on velocity

is that still the case or is it now that they concentrate more on energy and not velocity?

as a 52gr pill doing 3800fps is well within the allowable energy of 4500J does this mean i can use it OR am i totally stupid and got it completely wrong all along

 

info appreciated

 

cheers

 

Ian

[baldie]

It will fall foul on feet per second Ian. I think Bisley etc has a limit of 3250, or 3400....i cant remember without checking.

I,ve got round it with the one i,m building by using a very fast twist and 90 grain bullets. It will make around 3000 fps.

[duey]

thanks Baldie

as i thought! strange that i can shoot my 300win mag but not my 22-250 !!!! go figure! but thats military minds for you eh

 

ian

[Elwood]

Bisley is 3290 fps I believe, however you can use a 22.250 shooting the running deer at BSRC at Bisley.

[duey]

just fancied having a bash at Kingsbury tommorow with Offas Dyke, dont seem to do HME zeroing for the 600yds in the PM anymore, mainly due to either other clubs or military use of other side of range so cant use the 300 win mag and only a few hunting and a few target rounds for the 308 with no brass prepped for a quick load up BUT have about 90 22-250 loaded so thought would give that a bash but seemed to remember that it was too hot for range rules on velocity!! hence the post so bit of a bugger will have to stay at home and play loading instead

 

ian

[Alycidon]

I was at Kingsbury with the Air Cadets late last summer, its a really nice set up with firing points every 100 yards to 600 yards. I assume you use the righthand range as we were on the left hand one. Day I was there there were maybe 4 or 5 guys the other side, bet they fired no more than 30 rounds between them all day.

 

From what you are saying are they are also limited powerwise then ?, both of my centerfires can exceed 3290fps one very easily although the other a powder reduction of a grain or so would get it under 3290 in the winter anyway.

 

A

[duey]

not really limited on power as most fall within the 4500j energy limit, 308, 243, 6.5x55, 6.5x47, 223, 222, 303, etc etc and dont tend to exceed the velocity limit, but how many that shoot there that actually now their bullet velocities is hard to say, i would guess that at least a quater of those shooting are not aware of true volocities

 

usually shoot on the LH range as the RH range has the reactive targets for the figure 11 etc on them that the military and cadets use. they often do not go any further back than 200yds therefore our side is restricted to 300yds maximum

not really worth getting the 300 winmag out if only at 300yds but it is fun when we do get the oportunity

usually get a good day at the 1000mtr gallary range at sennybridge when the 300 and the 338 and the 6.5x284 come into their own as well as the 308 if the shooter has a scope with suficient elevation on top

 

dont actually do too many rounds myself when we only do 300yds as i find it fairly easy unless there's a challenging wind to spice things up a bit

 

 

ian

[Alycidon]

Do you not get the option of which distance you want to shoot at?, our cadets were at 100 yards with L98A1s (5.56mm/223) straight pull cadet rifles, the lads on the other side did some at 100 and some at 200.

 

As you say 300 with a big caliber is a bit pointless and soon erodes the throat. You do have some trees either side to shiel dteh worsyt of teh wind from memory but a quartering wind or one from behind I bet makes life interesting especially with tiddly pills like mine.

 

A

[duey]

usually have two details at 300yds in the morning, then after lunch have two details at 600yds providing that there is no one on other side shooting closer.

the military/cadets very rarely shoot out further than 200yds and not sure what they are using, poss SA80??

if its other clubs on the other range then we all tend to stick to the same agenda as above

often get a fishtailing wind from behind that catches quite a few out if not paying attention tonthe change in direction between shots

 

Ian

[TonyH]

I've shot on military ranges - though not Bisley - and never given a second thought to the MV of my .223, .222, 22-250 etc, which ofetn exceeds the figures quoted here by several hundred fps.... AFAIK no-one ever queries your MV and certainly doesn't come around to chrono your load. It has been my consistent observation that the military know absolutely sod-all about the ballistics of anything but the calibres they themselves use. Why not just shoot away and say nowt....

TonyH

[Laurie]

It has been my consistent observation that the military know absolutely sod-all about the ballistics of anything but the calibres they themselves use. Why not just shoot away and say nowt....

TonyH

 

I've seen that approach, usually with .22-250 Rem owners, over the years on military ranges. In the past other civilian users who do know their cartridges and ballistics would 'look the other way'.

 

I'm not so sure now. We live in a health & safety rules obsessed culture and getting caught out in this sort of thing is a real quick way of getting civilians banned ................. or, and more likely, told that everybody who uses a military range shoots nothing but factory .308W and .223R. As you say the military know sod-all about cartridges they don't shoot, so restricting the ranges to those cartridges they do know is the simple and obvious answer to any abuse that's discovered.

 

Laurie

[duey]

yep tony considered that but theres always the 'what if' scenario and sods law I would be on the range when something went wrong

RCOs should check everyones caliber of use on the range to cover themselves as they have signed for the responsibility of the range.

were all there to enjoy ourselves and most RCOs are happy as long as its all done safely and often turn a blind eye to minor infringements of the rules to keep everyone happy because yes the military are blind to calibers outside their use and common sense is not in their reasoning but thats what we have to live with to keep shooting

especially as a large part of the public just see firearms of any sort, as just killing machines, and would be happy for any excuse to have them all banned from public ownership

thats why we all need to be vigilant and keep things as straight as possible, even if we dont agree with the rules we need to stick with them and try to educate the powers that be to change the rules

 

ian

[TonyH]

These arguments are fair enough and clearly it's better to be safe than sorry. If enforced universally, it means I'd never be able to shoot on military ranges unless I developed special downloaded rounds, which for me would be a pointless exercise, a complete waste of time. No great loss personally since I'm not interested in target shooting as such, but irritating for many I would imagine.

TonyH

[alled12]

Before we get all funky about the military enforcing these riduculous muzzle energy limiti and velocity limits bare in mind it was the bloody idiotic civil servants who created this situation not the Military. I would however agree that the army wouldnt no the difference between 22-250 and 308 without being told. I know at bisley you can shoot soemthing upton 7500 joules providing you go on the zero range first does this apply to high muzzle velocities?

[LONG RANGE CAPT]

Before we get all funky about the military enforcing these ridiculous muzzle energy limit and velocity limits bare in mind it was the bloody idiotic civil servants who created this situation not the Military. I would however agree that the army wouldn't no the difference between 22-250 and 308 without being told. I know at bisley you can shoot something upton 7500 joules providing you go on the zero range first does this apply to high muzzle velocities?

 

I would agree, having served for 9 years in the military, most military RCO and those involved in the running of ranges would not be aware of any of the issues normal shooters face, and for many of my colleagues, the level of knowledge is so low (as know teaching of civilian shooting takes place on any military course) reactions such as ''I didn't know civilians shot on MOD ranges'' are not uncommon.

 

The whole muzzle velocity/muzzle energy in my mind is just away to clamp down on Health & Safety, based on civil servants knowing little if anything about firearm safety.

 

Those civil servants are only to keen to see civilian ownership of anything, that goes pop, wound up and consigned to history.

 

I know from my own experience that when it comes to military shooting, if its on issue or being tested it can be made to go ''POP'' given a fundamental knowledge of arks of fire, splash areas and safety distances.

 

Best example I have seen was several .50 Browning heavy machine gun being test fired, on full auto. On a 25 meter barrack range.

 

I cant even imagine the muzzle energy on that lot, all blasting away in unison.

 

But even the military are subject to the publics wishes, for example Lulworth Cove in Dorset. Lulworth being one of the oldest and best Royal Armored Corps ranges, recently had summer firing restrictions placed apon it, meaning that 120mm tanks could no longer fire during certain seasonal periods. As it would upset the tourists.

 

While the military had for a long time chosen remote out of the way places to conduct its training, those same places are where people now wish to spend there leisure time. And living on the small island that we do, with a growing, more mobile population these pressures will have to be managed well in order for us all to enjoy are various pastimes.

[duey]

alled12

Bisley is a military range and like all the others has a muzzel velocity restriction of 3280fps on the gallery ranges regardless of muzzel energy

any firearm with a muzzel energy above 4500joules up to a maximum allowance of 7000joules is subject to a special zeroing proceedure each time that it is used to prove you have the knowlage of where your bullet is supposed to be going

338 is not permitted as the danger zone template for this site is not big enough!!!!!!

 

so a 22-250 with a 52gr bullet doing 3600-3800 with a energy of about 2600joules isn't allowed, but a 300 winmag with 200gr bullet doing 2850fps with a energy of about 4700joules is, if you can pass a zeroing test!!!!!

 

ian

[TonyH]

... a 22-250 with a 52gr bullet doing 3600-3800 with a energy of about 2600joules isn't allowed, but a 300 winmag with 200gr bullet doing 2850fps with a energy of about 4700joules is, if you can pass a zeroing test!!!!!

 

ian

There you go, totally f***ing stupid. So it aligns perfectly with UK firearms legislation, then...

TonyH