Diggle 600 Yard BR Shoot Sunday 27th Dec is "On"

[Laurie]

Hi Guys,

 

Vince Bottomley has done a recce up to Diggle Ranges today and reports the access road is clear right up to the range house on the steep and/or bendy bits, with some snow and ice only on the long flat sections Boxing Day afternoon. (I've been keeping an eye on the upper part of the range through the webcam and the snow has been retreating pretty fast throughout the day. With tonight forecast above zero for the Manchester / Huddersfield areas, there should be even less Sunday morning.)

 

So tomorrow's comp will be going ahead.

 

Laurie

[baldie]

I made it as far as snoopy,s cafe up on the top of the greenfield road. It started snowing like buggery, so i turned round. Did you guy,s get to shoot ?

[Laurie]

I made it as far as snoopy,s cafe up on the top of the greenfield road. It started snowing like buggery, so i turned round. Did you guy,s get to shoot ?

 

 

Dave,

 

yes - after about an hour's delay thanks to drizzle and low cloud. 25 in total - went well. Bloody cold though! Vince B was 'Light Gun' winner and Phil Gibbon 'Factory Sporter' (Darren was either 2nd or 3rd, I can't remember which now.) No record groups today or anywhere near thanks to a strong and constantly switching wind - smallest group was the wrong side of 3" and there weren't that many below 4" truth be told.

 

Vince will have the results up in the UKBRA website pretty sharpish:

 

UK BR Assoc Competitions Page

 

Pity you couldn't make it - it was a good day despite the weather.

 

Laurie

[foxing2night]

Sorry that you could not make it Dave,,,

But as Laurie has said, It was bloody bleak to say the least???

 

I would like to say my congratulations to Laurie on winning the 2009 factory sporter championship,

 

Well done Laurie, you shot very well all season,,,,

 

All the best, Darrel

 

And best wishes for the new year,,,

[mole-e30]

Another great day at Diggle......

 

Just following on from the other thread about the "Factory Rifle" competition, here is a little bit of fun.

 

I have just looked at the results from Sunday and noticed that the Factory Sporters did very well in some interesting conditions, so here we go.

 

Total entry was 25, with 11 factory rifles

 

Factory Sporters took 3rd, 4th, 6th, 11th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 20th, 21st, 24th & 25th

 

If you look at the top six their aggregate groups were.

 

1st - 5.315" - Custom Rifle - Vince Bottomley - 22 Dasher

2nd - 6.154" - Custom Rifle - Jack Gibb - 6.5 x 47

3rd - 6.254" - Factory Sporter - Phil Gibbon - 6.5 x 284 Savage

4th - 6.754" - Factory Sporter - Mole-e30 - 6.5 x 284 Savage

5th - 7.026" - Custom Rifle - Mike Weatherhead -

6th - 7.385" - Factory Sporter - Foxing2Night - 6.5 x 47 Accuracy International

 

I think this shows that factory rifles in the right hands can do it, Foxing2Night regularly gives some of the "Big Boys" a good run for their money with his 6.5 x 47

 

The conditions on Sunday were interesting to say the least, with many people incuring penalties, both factory and custom.

 

I love the Factory Sporter class in benchrest, it is so fun, and a great way to get into it and keep going. At 600 and 1000 yards, I do personally beleive that if you have good gun in a suitable calibre then you can do it, and the shooter's skills come into play.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Bruce

[Laurie]

Bruce,

 

there is an issue about Factory Sporter Class that has escaped all of the proponents in the 'other debate' so far as I can see. That is, one or two models usually and quickly emerge as being superior. Take your list of FS placements and groups again, and what have you got:

 

Darren's Accuracy International and half a dozen Savage 12 F rifles in 6.5-284.

 

You also get the 'Killer Factory Rifle' issue - if you need a Savage 12 (at nearly two grand now) to compete, what can you do about the individual who falls lucky and gets the 1 in 100 rifle off the production line where all the tolerances fall the right way? Rhetorical question - you can't! Ironically, you don't get this with custom kit, only factory. If Pete Walker, Dave Wylde, Norman Clark et al built rifles whose performance varies as much as some factory models, they wouldn't stay in business long!

 

Apart from shooting skill and experience (and a bit of luck) a lot of the competitive margin comes from handloading, but none of these will make a .308W Remington 700VS or PSS competitive in FS BR at the moment.

 

This isn't a moan about FS - quite the reverse as one who's had great fun participating in it all year - just a comment that it doesn't in itself create a level playing field. If the characters in the other thread get their 'redneck F-Class' (and good luck to them) I hope they don't find out a year or two into it that something pricey like a Sako 85 Stainless Laminate Varminter can't be beaten and you have to buy one if you want to have a chance.

 

Have a good New Year and see you in 2010. I'm just up on my feet (shakily) after 36 hours of something painful and unpleasant in the stomach department - some sort of winter vomiting virus. Just looked on the Diggle webcam and there appears to be heavy snow falling again. I won't be going tomorrow taking these two factors into account.

 

Laurie

[foxing2night]

Laurie ,, Sorry to hear that you have not been well??

I am In the same boat, or should i say "bog" myself,,,,

 

Just starting to feel a bit better today?????

 

Bruce,, Good write up there my mate And a very interesting discussion that followed????

 

As Laurie has said, the Factory class is a can of worms at the moment and i cannot see a solution????,

The rifle to beat at the moment seems to be the savage rifle,, But they are not infallible, as i have proved a few times!!!

 

And i must say that Tony with her bog standard rem 308 has had a lot of good groups even out to 1000 yrds,,,,

So yes if you have enough money and can afford the best rifle stroke callibre, That is at the top of the game at the pressent time,,, And your reloading is good,,,

And scope is of top quality,,,, You still have to put them bullets into that target???????

 

The phrase, the nut behind the butt comes into mind!!!!!!!

 

People said to me that my Accuracy international AW in 308 would not compete,, Ha,,,, but it did!!

It not only compete,s but it has beaten a lot of custom rifles in the process.....

 

I must admit that this gives me grate pleasure in doing so,,,,

Personally i bought this rifle as it was somthing that i had always wanted!!!

Then for some ont to tell me that in there opinion it wont compete,,,

Just gets gets the bit between my teeth,,,,,,

 

To sum it up,, It is a bloody good comp,,,, What i say is learn your trade and go and do it!!!

 

Good company and bloody good fun,,,, just go and enjoy????

 

All the best to you all,, Darrel

PS,, It is a pity that we have no photos to show on here???

[Laurie]

Darrel,

 

sorry it's not just me suffering! I've just reached the stage of wondering if I dare try food again.

 

Going back to your AI, these rifles constantly amaze me - they've got to be as tough as old boots for the market they're designed for and yet they somewhow seem to put up custom rifle performances. Yours isn't the first I've come across that really does shoot well.

 

I know that Border made the barrels for a long time, but don't know if they do now - whoever does, they're making a good job of it!

 

I know how you feel about the AI - I'm the same with AR type rifles.

 

See you on 23rd January and let's hope it's a bit warmer by then. I think you've had a bit more snow in the last 24 hours - none here in York, just perishing!

 

Laurie

[mole-e30]

Laurie,

 

This brings me back to my sailing days, basically we had 2 types of classes........

 

Development classes .......... a few basic rules, governing max length weight and sail area, otherwise anything else goes

 

One Design Classes .......... buy the boat from one manufacturer, everything else the same, so the only differenc ewas the sailor.

 

Now where is he going with this I hear you all asking........

 

So Custom guns in either F class or Benchrest are essentially the same as Development classes.

 

Factory sporter as you rightly point out is a bit of a can of worms, but is probably closer to One Design than Development class, a restricted set of rules, i.e. no rebarrelling etc.

 

The only TRUE level playing field would be to say that we will have a true One Design Class....

 

This would be say everyone has to have a Rem 700 PSS in 308, any scope, and any reloads.

 

We were never restricted on which brand of roles you could use, so this is similar to ammo.

 

The downside to all this is........ COST - the chosen manufacturer is the only one who wins, trust me they will soon cotton on and hike the price on the chosen rifle.

 

I have done both classes, and if you were to ask for a true refection as to which was best, it would be hard to answer.

 

The development class (custom) option allows competitors to perfect everything to suit them, only they can be blamed if it doesnt work.

 

In One design, like Laurie says, you could be lucky and get a good boat/rifle or get a bad one. HOWEVER the one thing it does do is that it takes out a lot of the gripes about oh his is better than mine in this condition or that condition.

 

In all honesty you will never find a perfect solution, and anyone who says you will is lying!!! FACT!

 

I personally think the way it is at the moment is about the best you will get, this "OTHER DISCUSSION" is just anither version of a development class plain and simple.

 

I think the problem is that until we get more development of factory rifles, like what Savage did with the model 12 F-Class in 6.5 x 284, it will like you say be quite stagnant, with everyone being forced into buying one, with only the odd person (sorry Darrel) breaking the mould and going for something a bit different or strange, some will work well, and some will flop.

 

Without development from manufactureres, this will actually breed a sub set ONE DESIGN CLASS, because as with 1000yard factory sporter most people who want to compete will end up buying and running a Savage f-Class rifle.

 

What goes arround comes arround.

 

Happy New Year

 

Bruce

[Laurie]

There have been one-design classes in shooting too, although I think mostly on the continent. Sauer made the STR2000 for a one-rifle class 3-P shooting many years back. I don't know anything about the class - I assume it was a low(er)-cost entry level.

 

I've often thought the NRA was deficient here with Target Rifle in that one way of the very least attempting to slow the decline was to have a budget standardised rifle class. When Savage brought out the 12 Competition action, this would have made the basis for a good one allied to something like Border's cheaper Archer barrels. To tell you the truth, I don't think such a rifle would have given anything away at all to the normal custom built jobs.

 

Happy New Year to you too.

 

Laurie

[baldie]

Personally i cant get my head round the factory sporter rules Laurie.

 

The one that has always puzzled me is why rpa rifles are banned in this class?

They run krieger, walther, or border barrels, dependant on which model, and when it made. As far as i know, they are chambered and fitted at rpa too.

How are these any different to darryl,s AW fitted with a border archer barrel ?

[lambsey]

Laurie and Darryl- I think your both ill due to all the winning you've been doing this year!!!!!! have you spent all the money on chocolate????

 

have fun.

 

see you next year!!!

[Gun Pimp]

Hi Dave,

 

When benchrest first kicked off in the UK we shot everything from out and out custom 6PPC guns to 'out of the box' factory sporters.

 

As things got more competitive, a few shooters realised they couldn't compete with a custom rifle so lost interest. Another Class was introduced for standard factory rifles - out of the box - no mods allowed. Then somebody turned up with a 6PPC Cooper! We did however allow the 6PPC and 22PPC Sako and several shooters have done very well with these - including Darrel.

 

The 6PPC RPA Interceptor was like the Cooper - so we moved it into the Heavy Varmint Class - after it won the FS Championship.

 

You are right about Darrel's Accuracy International - it is 'border-line' but only on a par with the 6.5-284 Savages - which are genuine mass-production factory rifles. Laurie's Savage 204 with which he won the FS Class this year was also very good and again, a geniune factory rifle.

 

But, don't forget, the purpose of the Factory Sporter Class is to introduce new shooters to benchrest. Shoot with us for a season or so and if you enjoy it, get yourself a proper benchrest rifle - as Laurie and Bruce have done. Having said that, it's great to see the factory guys beating a few custom rifle shooters - keeps us on our toes!

[lambsey]

I shot this year in the FS class, just to see what the rifle and myself would do. I really enjoyed it, so will be back for more next year.

 

Everybody likes to think there a good shot ??

Why not give it a go, there a friendly bunch and i will guarantee you will learn somthing?(unless you know it all ???)

[Laurie]

I shot this year in the FS class, just to see what the rifle and myself would do. I really enjoyed it, so will be back for more next year.

 

Everybody likes to think there a good shot ??

Why not give it a go, there a friendly bunch and i will guarantee you will learn somthing?(unless you know it all ???)

 

 

Andy,

 

A good New Year and see you in 2010.

 

Laurie

[lambsey]

Andy,

 

A good New Year and see you in 2010.

 

Laurie

 

 

Same to you Sir

 

Have a good one

[baldie]

Hi Dave,

 

When benchrest first kicked off in the UK we shot everything from out and out custom 6PPC guns to 'out of the box' factory sporters.

 

As things got more competitive, a few shooters realised they couldn't compete with a custom rifle so lost interest. Another Class was introduced for standard factory rifles - out of the box - no mods allowed. Then somebody turned up with a 6PPC Cooper! We did however allow the 6PPC and 22PPC Sako and several shooters have done very well with these - including Darrel.

 

The 6PPC RPA Interceptor was like the Cooper - so we moved it into the Heavy Varmint Class - after it won the FS Championship.

 

You are right about Darrel's Accuracy International - it is 'border-line' but only on a par with the 6.5-284 Savages - which are genuine mass-production factory rifles. Laurie's Savage 204 with which he won the FS Class this year was also very good and again, a geniune factory rifle.

 

But, don't forget, the purpose of the Factory Sporter Class is to introduce new shooters to benchrest. Shoot with us for a season or so and if you enjoy it, get yourself a proper benchrest rifle - as Laurie and Bruce have done. Having said that, it's great to see the factory guys beating a few custom rifle shooters - keeps us on our toes!

 

 

Ahhh, thank,s for that Vince.

I didn,t know how the fs rules worked , thats cleared it up.

It is great to see Darryl doing so well with what is essentialy a military/tactical rifle. OK, its now in a very efficient calibre, but i honestly believe that guy would win with a catapult.......he,s just a bloody great shot.

 

Compensation for being a sheep shagger.

[Jay Foxing]

What compensation did i get for being a sheep shagger then.......

 

Well done to all of you who take part in competitive shooting, its never as easy as punching holes in paper down the fields. I missed shooting the 2009 competitions due to work and the expense of it all. I hope to be back at the Diggle over the 2010 season, see you all there.

 

All the best,

Jay.

[baldie]

" you,ve got a purrrty mouth "

[Jay Foxing]

Thanks Dave,

 

How did you get on with the McQueen's this year?

[baldie]

I,ve hardly shot it buddy. In fact, i,ve hardly shot anything much, series wise up at diggle.

 

The problem i have with both the mcqueens and the tactical series, is that you have to shoot every single one of the matches. That means if you miss one through illness, or work, or whatever, you,ve lost the whole series. The practical rifle series runs to a better idea, which is your best 5 or 6 scores to count, for the championship.

 

Plus the mcqueens calender also clashes with at least two of the four gallery rifle championships at Bisley, of which we always attend.

Basically what i tend to do now, is just go up there and shoot what gun i fancy, at whatever discipline is on.

I,ve enjoyed the last year a lot more by doing it that way, and not worrying about missing shoots etc.

 

As you know, half the fun of Diggle is the craic with the lads, and the merciless piss taking.

[foxing2night]

Nice to see Vince on our site!!!!

Also good to hear that Jason plans a come back,,,,,

 

Baldie my mate,, You are just a perv

But thank you for your comments!!!!

Even if i am as you say a sheep shagger and bloody proud of it

had my eye on a nice one on sunday,, but when it heard the velcro,, it ran a bloody mile

 

Thank you dave, I have put a lot of work into my shooting this year and it was really nice to read your words,,,,,,,,

 

I know that this topic is like opening a can of worms???, But on reflection, if we all had to stick to one make of rifle and or one callibre,, dont you think that the comp would become stagnant????

 

At least savage have got their act together with the rifle they are now selling??? Like it or not they are bloody good

So what i was trying to say, is that we might not of had this kind of advance in the production of a factory rifle????,

 

This kind of discussion about the price of rifles whether it be factory or custom has been going on for a long time,, but sadly not everyone can afford a new custom rifle and the money that one would need to be able to compete at a high level,,,, Sad but true!!!!! I think that this is why a lot of people are starting to change over to ftr and not full blown f-class!!!!! But this is your choice????

I was once told, no names mentioned,, that you could tell lot of f-class shooters because they had the best rifles they could afford and the cheapest cars going!!!!!

 

But from my point of view, these are the people that pave the way for the peronal advancement of new shooters that are coming along,,,, And the diggle has got some of the most knowledgeable people in the country,, who are friendly and very helpfull,,

 

And due to all the hard work that these people put in, so that we can go and shoot in these comps,

The diggle is a credit to them!!!!!

 

To old and new friends alike,, Hope that you all have a good new year.

 

Darrel

[baldie]

Best wishes to you for the new year too Darryl.

 

What is the weight limit for light gun class ?

I,ve just got my sticky little mitts on my mbr tooley stock from mcmillan, and it seems exceptionally light compared to an A5. Its a single shot lawton going in it, and i,m thinking its not going to be a heavy gun, so purely by chance could make weight for light gun classes for benchrest etc?

I didn,t build it as a bench gun, its a 22-250 ackley, but its going to shoot the 90 grain bergers, so will stay in range limits. If its somewhere near weight wise, i will be a little more careful with scope choice etc, and maybe have a bash at br with it too.

Is it around 17 lb for light gun ?

[Laurie]

yes,

 

17lbs Dave.

 

If I didn't say so before, Happy New Year and good shooting in 2010. I'll come along and see you, Roger and Sheila sometime soon and do a piece for TargetShooter on what you're up to at Rimfire Magic these days, especiually on the centrefire side.

 

Laurie

[baldie]

The same best wishes to you too Laurie, and thank you for your card.

Look forward to seeing you in the new year........the kettle is on .