brass draw and expander balls.

[craigyboy]

just a curiosity question here. If youre using a bushing die with the correct diamter bushing do you need to use the expander ball? At the minute I am using standard redding dies with the expander ball and not matter how hard I try I am always getting a slight brass draw when I pull the expander back through and if I dont use the expander the case necks are too tight. Usually the necks draw anywhere from .002-.005, it doesnt really bother me as I trim them anyhow, though I know it is thinning the brass slightly. I have done everything to try and avoid it, I clamped the expander assembly in a pillar drill and got a cloth filled with fitz metal polished and let it spin in it , you could see yourself in the expander ball when I was finished, I also done the inside of my dies while i was at it, made some job of them there are so much smoother, you barely need to lube. I also lube and clean the inside of case necks before sizing but it still does it, as I say it doesnt really annoy me just wondering how everyone else gets around it and as i am about to buy a set of competition dies I am wondering weather I will have the same problem or weather I can chuck the expander ball (dont really want to be thinning the necks on my new laupa brass)

[Andrew]

What caliber? I use Lee Collet dies for my conventional chamberings: No expander and they collet allows me to adjust neck tension.~Andrew

[craigyboy]

.204 ruger

[Vermincinerator]

Craigy,

Bushing dies do not have an expander button, the bushing itself sizes the neck to a diameter you choose, usually .002" to .003" below neck diameter with a bullet seated.

As it is the outside of the the neck that is sized there is no way of controlling the ID of the neck if you have variances in the case neck wall thickness.

That is why a light uniforming neck turn is recommended or the use of high quality brass.

 

Ian.

[Vermincinerator]

Andrew, please could explain how you use the collet to vary the neck tension?

The very nature of the Lee collet is to use the collet to squeeze the neck against a set size mandrell. Surely if you are not sizing against the mandrel you can not possibly set your die to consistantly size your necks the same each time?

 

Ian.

[craigyboy]

I am using laupa brass so I should be just fine with the outside bushing die, My loaded case necks measure 0.2305 so ill order a 0.299, .298, and .297 and have a play with them to see what works best. I was also reccomended the lee collet die by someone over on saubier.com, they said it works great.

[Vermincinerator]

There is no doubt that the Lee collet die can load outstandingly accurate ammo, the principle of the design is excellent but the same cant be said about their quality and that is the reason why i dont use Lee equipment, its cheap and nasty.

If you are going to experiment with several bushings, you only need to apply enough neck tension so that the bullet cannot be twisted between thumb and forefinger.

 

Ian.

[Ronin]

Craigy

 

none of the Redding Comp dies have expander buttons, the depriming rod is held by a straight pin that is ajusted for via a locking thread.

 

The less expensive dies do have a expander button, but this can be dispensed with by either grinding the button down or buying a conversion from Redding to change to non expander decapper.

 

With the bushing dies, the whole idea is not to work the brass too much, so when you fire the rifle, the case is already expanded as much as it needs to be, you just de prime and re size to whatever neck size you want with the bushing of choice (as already covered)

 

By using an expander ball, you are overworking the case neck, thinning the metal at the junction of the neck and shoulder and potentially increasing the risk of premature case failiure.

 

Be gentle with them mate

[Andrew]

Ian: I'll take outstandingly accurate ammo from a cheap and nasty Collet die anytime. I use Collet dies on .22 Hornet, .222 and .223, and 243 in varmint calibers, as well as Seven big game calibers. They do produce accurate ammunition -as accurate as any I've shot from factory rifles in 40 years of reloading.

 

As to your question about adjusting the die consistently: I start with the factory recommendation and work either way I experiment. Collet closure can be measured with a feeler gage for very precise adjustment. After I get what I'm looking for I lock the die. There is obviously no expander ball stretch to deal with which meets your criteria nicely. Unfortunately, the last time I checked, Lee didn't make the Collet in 204. They would make one for you if you sent them a few fired cases.

 

Good luck. ~Andrew

[Vermincinerator]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for tha explanation mate i will try your method, (yes i do have one in .243)

About 2 years ago a collet die using friend issued a challenge to prove that the Lee collet die can load ammo as good as my Redding comp dies.

He provided me with a free collet die and i conducted side by side tests with the Redding Comp dies to find out once and for all which would produce the most accurate ammunition.

After ten 5 shot groups each, there was no concievable winner, both produced consistant sub 1/2 moa ammo from my .243 Rem 700 PSS, i had to admit defeat.

My dislike for Lee equipment stems purely from their poor manufacturing quality, not their ability to load quality ammo or the concept of the collet die etc....

 

Ian.

[Redfox]

The Lee dies if you look carefully have rolled threads not cut ones, which usually gives the best strength and consistency ( I just thought i would mention it but it isnt really relevant ) I like you Ian have tried both and found the Lees collets made acurate ammo. I usually buy 2-3 mandrels and grind them to slightly smaller then std sizes which increases the neck tension ( Lee will do this for you ), more really to not have the bullet move in the magazine than anything else.

Craigyboy

Even Lapua and Norma cases have a variation in neck thickness, from one side to another as well as from case to case, due to the way they are formed it happens to all makes of case. I lightly Neck turn all cases to show 50% of the circumference cleaned up ( halfway round), this does not thin the cases as the thickness is obviously determined by the thinnest part of the neck anyway. You will then have cases that hold the bullet straight in the throat and consistent tension on all your cases.

Weighing them with a good scales and chucking any that are a lot different than the majority will help as well after turning and primer pocket trimming as they are going to have a different capacity than the others and in small cases this makes a significant difference to how the round performs agains the others. You only need to do it once when the cases are new and it is a good game for the long dark nights Lol.

Redfox

P.S not chucking away, just into a polly bag with approx weight on and save them up, eventually you should end up with enough to sell on or use if you want to as of course they will all be roughly the same.

[Andrew]

Ian: I have found that good loading techniques trump any amount of cash spent for equipment. I have loaded using the Lee Classic Loader -a $22 tool- and made ammo for my .223, .222, and 30-06 that rivaled those loaded on my RCBS equipment. A skillful reloader can make good cartridges with nearly any reasonably suitable tool. ~Andrew

[craigyboy]

neck turning then, I was not to keen on starting this (I ordered a .233 neck reamer so I wouldnt have too) but I suppose in aid of consistent ammo ill do pretty much anything, maybe ill get some sort of power driven set up as I have 200 laupa/dakota tac20 cases to do. I was under the impression that laupa brass was that good there was no need to prmer pocket ream, flash hole de-burr or run through the trimmer but if it has to be done then it will.

[Redfox]

Yes there are no silk purses only sows ears

I and others on here use the K&M neck turner kit from RSD and others. I works well and i use a cordless drill to power it and ptfe lube on the mandrel although you could use 3 in one oil or similar. I doall the prep and then tumble the cases in corn cob which dries everything out ok and then just use them.

Redfox

[Vermincinerator]

Redfox,

yeh, i did spot the rolled threads as well, Like you said the strongest of the thread forms and a very fast operation but the effective diameter must be spot on.

 

Ian.