Barrel swap cost

[njc110381]

Hey guys. I'm getting itchy feet and selling my .17HMR as the Hornet seems to do a fine job and I don't use it much these days. Before it goes though I'm considering changing the Hornet to a .17AH. What work is involved? I don't want it all poshed up. I'm happy with my stock, action, trigger etc. All I want is it barrelled in .17AH. I've seen the one in the for sale section for £1100 and that's far too much for me, as well as far too tidy! I want to do the job as cheaply as possible. I don't need first class accuracy, 1/2MOA would be better than I'll ever be!

 

As a really off the top of my head silly idea, could the CZ452 HMR barrel be re-chambered and fitted to my CZ527?

[TonyH]

... I'm considering changing the Hornet to a .17AH. .... All I want is it barrelled in .17AH. .... I want to do the job as cheaply as possible. I don't need first class accuracy, 1/2MOA would be better than I'll ever be!

Well, I don't think you'll find differing degree of accuracy on offer - if you get a rebarrelling job, it should always be top notch. But I looked around earlier this year at rebarrelling costs and was very disappointed: in the States, or places such as New Zealand (possibly in Continental Europe too) you can get a new custom barrel for around £250 or sometimes less, and fitting is very reasonable, but in UK I was quoted prices between £600 - £800 pounds all in. This seems to me the standard UK rip-off premium, and I declined to pay it, buying a new factory rifle instead. But .17AH is a very attractive calibre and if you want one you'll have to go the custom route. Here are a few email addresses I trawled up from my own correspondence:

gavin@anglocustomrifle.co.uk

enquiries@wildcatrifles.co.uk

jim@nasg.fsnet.co.uk

stephen.kershaw@virgin.net

Good luck!

TonyH

[njc110381]

Looking at the prices I've decided to go with 6ppc's custom. I'll sell a couple of guns that I don't use and bite the bullet, it does look very nice!

[Cornishman]

Richard Pope of Swift Precision rifles did mine at at fair cost and I think he might still have some Lothar Walther barrels in stock. Worth a call on 01527 871 620.

 

Cornishman

 

PS - For field use I find my 17AH is the reach-for rifle almost every time. It's light, super accurate, cheap to load for, doesn't frighten the police and not as noisy as the bigger toys.

 

PPS - budget for reloading gear (full list on request if you decide to go down that route. Which you should).

[njc110381]

Well I just got a reply e-mail from a local company (HPS) and they recon it will be £1400 for a re-barrel from them! Not much chance of that happening then!

[Vermincinerator]

Well I just got a reply e-mail from a local company (HPS) and they recon it will be £1400 for a re-barrel from them! Not much chance of that happening then!

 

F...........kin' ell

 

Ian

[njc110381]

F...........kin' ell

 

Ian

 

 

My thoughts exactly! Not even going to go there, that's just daft!

 

It doesn't matter now anyway. I've made my mind up and I'm going to have the one 6ppc is selling. That looks like a lovely gun, built by a well recognised guy, nice trigger etc. It seemed like a lot of money at first but I think it will be worth it. I filled out my variation earlier so that's ready to go. Hopefully it shouldn't be long before it's mine and I can go and mess up some bunnies with it. I applied for a .22lr and a 7mm combination gun at the same time, I'm thinking of having a real sort out of my kit soon so may as well get on with it!

[skany]

£550 would do i would have thought?

 

speak to neil aka dasherman on here

 

cant see it being much more then this & he does a spot on job!

 

 

cheers Andy

[njc110381]

I could go that route, but I really like the look of the gun 6ppc is selling. If I sell my hornet and the ASE S5 I have on it and add what I get for that to the £500+ I'd have to pay for the new barrel I'll be somewhere in the region of £1100, which is what I'm buying the new rifle for. It has a nice mod included in the price, a nice trigger and a nice stock. I think the route I'm taking will give me a better gun for about the same money.

 

I do appreciate the costs being put to me here though. It has at least made me realise that the company I asked are never going to get any trade from me!

[TonyH]

Good luck with that .17AH rifle, looks very nice and it's a fascinating calibre. I don't blame you for getting a ready made rifle - the prices listed by various others here - not to mention that exorbitant price you were quoted! - underline my feeling that UK 'smithing charges are a rip-off. In the States you can buy a top barrel such as Shilen, threaded and chambered, for under $400, and for fitting you can easily find a decent 'smith who'll do it for maybe $120-$150. Which amounts to between 40% and 60% less than the price demanded in UK.

[baldie]

Do you live in the real world Tony ?

Have you any idea of the wages, or cost of living in the USA ? Its a hell of a lot less than here.

We charge £550 for a plain archer, fitted, chambered and proofed. Factor out the original cost of the blank, then take off a mans wages at a skilled rate, for a minimum of four hours work. then take into account, our last lathe to do such work on, cost the best part of £18,000 to commision, and you may start to understand UK gunsmithing costs.

We charge labour out, at £40 per hour. You tell me what other engineering , or mechanical set up charges that. I think you will find most garages charge £90 per hour.

 

Njc....that rifle of Martin,s is an absolute steal....tear his arm off.

[TonyH]

Do you live in the real world Tony ?

Have you any idea of the wages, or cost of living in the USA ? Its a hell of a lot less than here....

Yes, I'm aware of the differences. The UK is a shockingly expensive country in which to do business, and it will remain so until its population puts two and two together and realises that a massively top-heavy government bureaucracy supporting a bloated Welfare State, and doing it very inefficiently, requires a very high rate of taxation. People can't have it both ways: if they want to be able to enjoy the fruits of their labours they can't expect constant handouts from Nanny State. Me, I wish I'd emigrated when I was 20.

In the meantime I still cannot feel anything but resentful and ripped-off when I'm asked to pay twice as much for gunsmithing, ammo components, fuel and food than my friends in N.America. Sorry, but £550, and often very much more than that, is too much for a new rifle barrel. My new Remington cost little more than that - working it up, looking good so far...

Regards, TonyH

[Zaitsev]

Me, I wish I'd emigrated when I was 20.

 

 

I can't help thinking that you're not alone in that wish

 

 

Regards

 

Gareth

[baldie]

I cant argue with your last post Tony....i actually agree with you. the point i,m making, is that its not the british gunsmith ripping off the shooting man at all. We have to eat, clothe the kids, and live just the same as the next man. There is a general feeling in the shooting world, that we are all bloodsucking leeches, just here to rip everyone off...and it disgusts me.

I work six days a week, and countless hours on the computer at night, talking guns with folk. yes it brings work.....a lot of it doesn,t. Roger [who owns our shop] works an 80 hour week himself.

The reason a barrel costs £550, is the public keep voting these twats in, who are bleeding everyone dry with tax.

Do you know how much a remington barrel costs ?

$19. So the yanks are having some up the arse as well....although not quite as much as us.

 

The states is drying up for guns, ammo, and products. The further we get into Obama's reign, the worse it will get. The supply of cheap gear is drying up through export bans in the states. Go ahead companies in the UK are reproducing these goods here. They cost more, but at least we can have them. If the british gun buying public continue to treat the gun trade like that which promotes growth and vigour, The gun trade will say "why bother".

A chap on another forum was enquiring last night why Badger goods couldn,t be shipped from Brownells. Badger are not on the export list . Why ? Because they dont give a toss. They are selling all they can make to the US military, and it would not surprise me, if Uncle Sam hadn,t told them to stop exporting.

The states does not need our buisness. They sell more marlins in Texas in one month, than we sell here, in one year.

Time we looked after ourselves, and our own trade, because people also forget where they buy ammo from. They cant get that from the good old USA, not directly.

[Chris-NZ]

Well I just got a reply e-mail from a local company (HPS) and they recon it will be £1400 for a re-barrel from them! ..

 

 

GEEZ!!

 

For that loot, you could fly out to NZ and have a TrueFlite fitted for 400 quid max!

 

Chris

[TonyH]

GEEZ!!

 

For that loot, you could fly out to NZ and have a TrueFlite fitted for 400 quid max!

 

Chris

I contacted TrueFlite but they wouldn't sell me a barrel, mean b**gers - just told me the name of their "official UK agent"...

TonyH

[Laurie]

The states is drying up for guns, ammo, and products. The further we get into Obama's reign, the worse it will get. The supply of cheap gear is drying up through export bans in the states. Go ahead companies in the UK are reproducing these goods here. They cost more, but at least we can have them. If the british gun buying public continue to treat the gun trade like that which promotes growth and vigour, The gun trade will say "why bother".

A chap on another forum was enquiring last night why Badger goods couldn,t be shipped from Brownells. Badger are not on the export list . Why ? Because they dont give a toss. They are selling all they can make to the US military, and it would not surprise me, if Uncle Sam hadn,t told them to stop exporting.

The states does not need our buisness. They sell more marlins in Texas in one month, than we sell here, in one year.

Time we looked after ourselves, and our own trade, because people also forget where they buy ammo from. They cant get that from the good old USA, not directly.

 

(From Baldie)

 

I couldn't agree more Dave. I've long thought we did very well here considering how small our market is compared to the USA. One of our Sierra bullet importers told me a few years ago that there were three or four gunshops in California who each take more Sierra bullets than the entire UK.

 

At the moment, the Americans have gone mad for all sorts of things - handguns, semi-auto rifles, any and all kinds of ammo and handloading components. My contact in Hodgdon says they've been working a 12-shift week for a year and still can't keep up with the demand. It's the same for brass, powders and primers.

 

It's not going to end soon either. It's the Obama effect, but also the USA and other bits of NATO fighting what is now a medium size war, but not publicly declared as such by chickenliver that which promotes growth and vigour politicians. One British Para 'battle group' alone used 600,000 rounds of smallarms ammo in 6 weeks in Afghanistan recently. There's no older 'surplus' 5.56 and 7.62 on the market now, and there's no new stuff arriving either other than Chinese Norinco, because it's all being sucked into Afghanistan. The few companies making classic military cartridges for historic shooters - .303, 6.5X55, 7.5X55 etc have either packed in, or switched to supplying government contracts with 5.56 and 7.62. Wait a little while and the bleats of pain from those guys who've always shot dirt cheap FMJ ammo will get louder and louder - they're either going to cut back their shooting a lot or start handloading (I've had two or three such approach me in recent weeks asking what powders I'd recommend for .223 and .308.) So, expect what supplies of powders and primers that do make it here to disappear even faster than before - at any price! Having said that, try getting half-decent FMJ bullets to handload in 0.303" now!

 

Then as various people have pointed out, when it comes to scopes, barrels, stocks, actions etc from the USA, we have a really bad combination now - a US State Department that is doing its level best to make it difficult and expensive for American companies to export these goods since it's worried about where they might end up, and in whose hands, allied to a booming varmint and precision shooting home market in the USA where they can sell everything they make. If I was an American barrel-maker at the moment, I'd ask myself "Why bother?" with piddling little (by their standards) European orders. That they're still supplying at all is more about looking after old customers than normal good business practice.

 

We need to make more stuff ourselves and/or find new sources of supply like Australia / New Zealand. It's a disgrace that we've (probably deliberately thanks to a politically correct anti-gun culture) thrown away a huge industry. Not a single propellant manufacturer here now, or for the last 20 years! What has Sweden, Norway, Finland, Australia, Switzerland, and Canada got that we haven't apart from a 'can do' attitude and sensible governments and civil servants? Same with rifles .........etc etc. One day we'll wake up and discover we're bankrupt and starving because we don't make anything and you can't eat reports that outreach co-ordinators and Elf & Safety inspectors spend their time writing.

 

Like others - I wish I'd pissed off to somewhere better when I was 20 - too late now though. (I keep hoping my kids will emigrate, so the wife and I can follow them ............ but they won't take the hints.)

 

In the meantime, thank god for the many people here like Baldie and Roger at SYSS, Brian Fox, Aim Field Sports and lots of other individuals and small companies who're working their contacts and persuading the Americans and others to keep sending stuff. Just don't expect it to get cheaper anytime soon!

 

Laurie

 

PS is it stocks and barrels today, gas, oil, wheat and potatoes tomorrow? There's a big potential downside to running your own producers down and saying global markets always supply, and cheaper too.

 

Maybe those nutcase American survivalists have a point after all! (Step 1: Find a remote house on a defensible hilltop with some good fertile land thrown in. Step 2: start looking for automatic weapons on the black market. Step 3: put some serious handloading time in now that you've no TV to watch. Step 4: identify ranges and lines of fire. Step 5: Oh ......... you get the drift. Let's not be driven down that road.)

[njc110381]

Baldie, your thumbs up regarding the rifle is much appreciated. I think you're the only person on here who's work I have first hand experience of (or at least the company you work for) so I have a lot of faith in your opinion.

 

I can see why people want to buy abroad sometimes. Money is money at the end of the day. It is very sad though that this happens because if too much of it goes on we could lose our local skills and suppliers which would be a great shame. It's all well and good buying an expensive scope for example abroad, but it would be a right arse to have to do the same with a box of bullets or tub of powder! It really does pay to support your local dealer, it's not his fault his tax bill and running costs are so high!

 

It's a shame we get charged so much for things here. At the same time we shouldn't forget we're paid pretty well so spread your wealth around a little closer to home and we'll all be better off.

[Laurie]

baldie Posted Oct 6 2009, 11:33 PM

 

The states is drying up for guns, ammo, and products. The further we get into Obama's reign, the worse it will get. The supply of cheap gear is drying up through export bans in the states. Go ahead companies in the UK are reproducing these goods here. They cost more, but at least we can have them. If the british gun buying public continue to treat the gun trade like that which promotes growth and vigour, The gun trade will say "why bother".

A chap on another forum was enquiring last night why Badger goods couldn,t be shipped from Brownells. Badger are not on the export list . Why ? Because they dont give a toss. They are selling all they can make to the US military, and it would not surprise me, if Uncle Sam hadn,t told them to stop exporting.

 

Hey Dave (and others),

 

re Badger Ordnance bits. I found York Guns have a large collection of Badger 30mm and 34mm mounts (both one and two-piece) in stock - some new, most used ex military at less than half the normal new price. Bought two brand new two-piece 30 mill sets for myself while they're still there.

 

(There are also some new and 'lightly used' Leupold Mk4 scopes, plus as new s/h Schmidt & Bender PMIIs - 3-12, 4-16, 5-25 models with P3 mildot rets in the same lot.)

 

Laurie

[TonyH]

.......It really does pay to support your local dealer, it's not his fault his tax bill and running costs are so high!.....

Yes indeed, and allow me to put in a word for James at Blue Fox in Devon - excellent dealer, nothing too much trouble, good prices too. But in general, I just wonder whether everyone who pleads high taxation and general cost & bureaucracy entailed in running a business in UK exerts enough pressure on politicians, both individually and through trade associations etc. Things won't change, we won't re-transform ourselves into a dynamic, vigorous, low-tax, successful, profitable country once more unless enough people get sufficiently pissed off with the political status quo to insist absolutely on radical changes. If everyone just says, oh, blow it, there's nothing we can do about it, then everything will continue difficult, depressing and unrewarding and we'll become an economic backwater while more thrusting economies (China, India) jump the queue.

TonyH

[foxing2night]

Yes indeed, and allow me to put in a word for James at Blue Fox in Devon - excellent dealer, nothing too much trouble, good prices too. But in general, I just wonder whether everyone who pleads high taxation and general cost & bureaucracy entailed in running a business in UK exerts enough pressure on politicians, both individually and through trade associations etc. Things won't change, we won't re-transform ourselves into a dynamic, vigorous, low-tax, successful, profitable country once more unless enough people get sufficiently pissed off with the political status quo to insist absolutely on radical changes. If everyone just says, oh, blow it, there's nothing we can do about it, then everything will continue difficult, depressing and unrewarding and we'll become an economic backwater while more thrusting economies (China, India) jump the queue.

TonyH

Well said mate!!!!! And no truer words said,,,,

Darrel

[JR__]

I cant argue with your last post Tony....i actually agree with you. the point i,m making, is that its not the british gunsmith ripping off the shooting man at all. We have to eat, clothe the kids, and live just the same as the next man. There is a general feeling in the shooting world, that we are all bloodsucking leeches, just here to rip everyone off...and it disgusts me.

I work six days a week, and countless hours on the computer at night, talking guns with folk. yes it brings work.....a lot of it doesn,t. Roger [who owns our shop] works an 80 hour week himself.

The reason a barrel costs £550, is the public keep voting these twats in, who are bleeding everyone dry with tax.

Do you know how much a remington barrel costs ?

$19. So the yanks are having some up the arse as well....although not quite as much as us.

 

The states is drying up for guns, ammo, and products. The further we get into Obama's reign, the worse it will get. The supply of cheap gear is drying up through export bans in the states. Go ahead companies in the UK are reproducing these goods here. They cost more, but at least we can have them. If the british gun buying public continue to treat the gun trade like that which promotes growth and vigour, The gun trade will say "why bother".

A chap on another forum was enquiring last night why Badger goods couldn,t be shipped from Brownells. Badger are not on the export list . Why ? Because they dont give a toss. They are selling all they can make to the US military, and it would not surprise me, if Uncle Sam hadn,t told them to stop exporting.

The states does not need our buisness. They sell more marlins in Texas in one month, than we sell here, in one year.

Time we looked after ourselves, and our own trade, because people also forget where they buy ammo from. They cant get that from the good old USA, not directly.

 

 

Baldie, you might enlighten me how you came to the 19 dollar remington barrel, even though I don't disagree. 10 dollars worth of bar stock, 3 minutes to prep for drill, 15 minutes to drill, 3 honing processes, 5 minutes to true between centers, 4 minutes to hammer forge with chamber, 5 minutes to finish turn, 2 minutes to finish the ends off. Rate here is about 80/hr. You know how they came to 19 dollars. Quantity, and they made enough 19 dollar barrels to recover the investment of the machinery to pound them out. They don't do one at a time, they do many at the same time. UK prices will be higher because the productivity is low, no offense mate. There isn't a barrel shop in the UK that comes close to the production rate of Krieger, Bartlein, Shilen, Hart, Douglas. Custom smithing will always be expensive, as you are working on one rifle at a time. When I was working in the UK, you'd often find me talking to myself pretty much going wtf over..Let's slim it down, engineer the snags out, pound this that which promotes growth and vigour out and get some major productivity going to supplement the slow that which promotes growth and vigour. Was frustrating to say the least. Here I get to cut time where it can be cut, because that is how you keep up. We just had a 'millionth rail' party on friday. that's production, and that's small beans production.

 

I bet if the chap emailed badger directly, they could be of some help. Brownells was never the best source when I was in the UK. Midway if you can. Direct is even better. Maybe you've asked and have been told that the US govt has full production, it won't take too long for that to be remedied.

 

The states enjoys the UK business, there is no bad business when it comes to selling. Most of us haven't been Obamafied in that we think we make 'just enough' money and are satisfied with that, we still want all of the money in the world.

 

Your tax sucks, that's for sure..so anyone looking at US prices figure on 17.5% up to start. Don't worry, they're looking at starting a VAT here now too, so your price will go up even more for US goods if that happens.

 

And the ammo thing, government lifted a ban to resell mil brass back to manufacturers so that should help our supply a bit..You might see higher production due to more availability of components next year.

 

We're not dried up, reloading components aside, but guns wise every retailer is stilll full from what I have seen. Used guns go quick, new is stocked. No one is stocking inventory mind, not due to drying up but due to waiting to see if it's worth the investment. Different economy at the moment..

 

 

later