njc110381 Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hey guys. I've dumped the daft idea of getting a lever action .300. It would be a serious waste of potential with a light weight short barrel, kind of defeating the object of having the round. I'm going to get a heavy barrel sniper type .300 and change my .375H&H for a .444. I just want some opinions on the calibre! My ex-mentor has one and loves it, but I'd like more opinions. For running Boar it would be perfect, and it kicks hard enough for me to assume it does the business at the pointy end too It's not a .375 (an icon of a calibre IMO, I'll miss being able to say I own one) but it will shaft a big Bear so will do for me. I'm not a big 5 shooter, too poor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 I,ve used a .444 lever action marlin, and its one hellova gun. You dont want to shoot one prone, trust me. My friend owned it for the piggies. I shot it several times at 100 yards, and it would happily put 5 rounds inside four inch, which doesn,t sound great, but bear in mind that was standing shots with a 5 power scope, and knowing full well, it was going to slap me every shot. He put an eagle stock pack on it later, and it was much more pleasant to shoot after that. Hornady also do the leverevolution ammo for this calibre too, so you would be sorted for an expanding round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 I did see a Coyote shot with one on a US DVD some while ago, it certainly did not want another !!. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 I don't think they are supposed to be a really accurate gun. They're too light and punchy for that. My mate can get it into 4" at 200 off sticks, which is good enough for any Deer or Pig use it is ever going to see. If I get charged by a Bear when I'm carrying it the groups are likely to be more like a dustbin lid anyway, no matter what rifle I have What do you mean don't shoot it prone? They're not that bad you big girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 The recoil isn,t that fierce....but the slap in the chops, because the stock is so low isn,t pleasant....thats really what i meant. My k98 mauser is the same....it fair rattles ya chops.... I,ve often though that the .444 and the 45/70 would make ideal woodland pig/deer guns here, after all, its what the yanks use them for. Probarbly more to do with our licensing laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Not wishing to jinx my chances, but the .444 is actually listed in the Home Office document as being a suitable calibre for Deer I'd imagine meat damage could be a little on the harsh side. In time I will let you know. We only have small Deer around here, mainly Roe with some Munties and Fallow so it could be a little on the harsh side for them. I think the main problem for the average UK Deer stalker would be ammo availability. I'll put my neck on the block and suggest not many shops stock it? Certainly it would be rarer than .243, .270 or .308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Anyone who buys from Edgars will get the hornady loaded ammo for you. Reloading would be the way forward though. I,m thinking that the leverevolution heads are also available too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 I haven't owned a Marlin lever gun but I have built several rifles in that caliber, one a single shot Remington Rolling Block with a 1-18" twist and the other a bolt action (#4 Enfield) with a 1-20 twist barrel. Both were exquisitely accurate rifles. Baldie isn't joking: They will shoot as well as you can hold. I have been keeping my eye open for a Marlin lever gun and thought I might have found one last week at a local shop but it was a Model 1895 45-70, not the .444 I'd hoped it would be. I continue to search for one! ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Andrew - that's very interesting. I've had two guys from across the pond tell me the .45-70 is better on another forum! I don't know enough about the .45 to judge for myself, but the key for me here is flat trajectory. Whichever is flattest is the one I will buy. A lot of people seem to be talking about .444s not being enough for Bears? I don't get it, maybe they mean at longer range? I'm only interested in having something that can fill them with big bullets between the time they charge and the time they (hopefully don't) get to me! UK Deer and running Boar will be its main quarry, along with the odd Squirrel if it's on the ground Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Sorry. I should have clarified my wants fore a .444 Marlin by adding I have three 45-70's already and I want a rifle that I can shoot pistol bullets out of. The .444 will suit that bill. The "heavy" bullets for the .444 are 265-ish grains. Not really heavy, nor do they fly particularly flat at even top speeds of 2300 fps. You can go heavier but I believe the twist rate remains 1-36" which won't stabilize anything too long.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 I've looked at the trajectories of both rounds (in factory form on the Hornady site). The .45-70 is like a lobbed brick in comparison to the .444, although even that is far from flat shooting as you say. I just don't want to have to think that much about range, so the .444 seems better for me. What you have to bear (excuse the pun) in mind is that our biggest wildlife is no threat to us at all. Not like some of the stuff you guys have which will seriously spoil your day if you shoot it badly then it gets hold of you! Just as a note, I'm fairly certain the new .444s are 1-20 twist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Good news about the 1:20 twist. It's about time! The either round is a 150 yard cartridge as loaded at the factory but there is a flatter trajectory to be had with the .444. Handloads are the way to fly in either instance. Now, I hate to add to the mix but Marlin just announced a .338 Marlin Express. It's supposed to be one mean mother of a lever action big came round. Looks like a .444 necked to .338 caliber. I was in a hurry so I didn't get to read anything past the title and header for the article. You may want to check it out. I will be.... Andrew http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/308...ess/default.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 It looks interesting. Not really sure what to make of it though, as it completely loses the big frontal area of the .44s and .45s. I'd imagine getting lever action compatible bullets in .338 could be a challenge? Most are really pointy! After a bit of reading I'm stuck between the .444 and .450. The .450 is growing on me for the extra punch it offers. Neither gun will be a long range affair so the little bit of lost trajectory wouldn't be an issue. I'm still not keen on the .45-70 though. One thing that could be an issue close to home is the velocity. You need 2450fps to hunt Deer in Scotland and the heavier bullets in the .444 don't make it! I've not checked the .450 yet, but can only assume it's the same (or maybe doesn't even make it at all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 It looks interesting. Not really sure what to make of it though, as it completely loses the big frontal area of the .44s and .45s. I'd imagine getting lever action compatible bullets in .338 could be a challenge? Most are really pointy! After a bit of reading I'm stuck between the .444 and .450. The .450 is growing on me for the extra punch it offers. Neither gun will be a long range affair so the little bit of lost trajectory wouldn't be an issue. I'm still not keen on the .45-70 though. One thing that could be an issue close to home is the velocity. You need 2450fps to hunt Deer in Scotland and the heavier bullets in the .444 don't make it! I've not checked the .450 yet, but can only assume it's the same (or maybe doesn't even make it at all). The 450 only tops 2400 fps with the lightest, and least aerodynamic bullets of 250 grains so that might not be an option. The .338 in a soft point round nose is usually a good stopper and would function in the lever guns safely. (Hornady, and I think Speer) I wouldn't worry about frontal area: the .338 is larger then the 30, 303, and 8mm's right? Plenty of boar have been killed with bullets of those diameters. The 200 grain factory round certainly hits the velocity mark at nearly 2600 fps. As an aside, back in the day, I would take US military FMJ bullets pulled from machinegun ammo and file the noses off to make a flat point that would function in my 30-30 lever gun. The finished bullets weighed around 155 grains and killed well at 2200 fps. Just more proof that where there his a will, there is a way!~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 I don't know why but the calibre .338 just rings alarm bells for me. I can see the firearms team getting a little stressed about it. I know the muzzle energy isn't huge, but since .338 Lapua was considered a high energy calibre for ranges here I think that number will create problems! The .444 is listed in our police guidelines as being a suitable calibre for Deer. It keeps things very plain and simple for them and should make my life much easier. The .45-70 is also listed, but a lot of the newer stuff isn't. I think I'll stick with the .444. If nothing else my mate shoots one and I can raid his bullets if I run out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Good call! ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Its not the .338 bit that makes firearms , that which promotes growth and vigour bricks buddy....its the "lapua magnum " bit that follows. Same with bisley. The 30-.338 is legal there.....so is the .416 rigby, the .338 parent case. Its all in a name. As an aside, not many people know, but ANYONE can possess expanding ammunition such as hollowpoint/softpoint, without section 5 exemption, for use in a TUBULAR magazine rifle. On safety grounds [chain fire] I checked yesterday, and hornady have indeed released the rubber tipped leverevolution heads for the handloader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 There was a article about the 338 Marlin express in the Feb issue of guns & ammo. Parent case is the 376 steyer and the case is shorter than a 338 fed. Andrew your'e right about 2600 fps with a 200gr (.430BC) COL 2.8" Not bad eh. I'd love a 30-30 Marlin. Must have a close look at the IWA. edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 There was a article about the 338 Marlin express in the Feb issue of guns & ammo.Parent case is the 376 steyer and the case is shorter than a 338 fed. Andrew your'e right about 2600 fps with a 200gr (.430BC) COL 2.8" Not bad eh. I'd love a 30-30 Marlin. Must have a close look at the IWA. edi I walked away from a 1950 production Model 336 Marlin 30-30 yesterday. It was in fine condition and the Shop wanted only $349 for it, but I have a few 30-30's already including a 336C made in 1952 sporting a long barrel and half magazine. Would have made a good investment though. Times must be getting tough: That 1895 Marlin 45-70 I mentioned above was as new and only $400. Pity not to be wealthy!~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 It could be an option I suppose. The ballistics certainly look good compared to the .444 but I still like the idea of a big bullet. I have a 6.5x55 for flatter shooting if I need it, and for a brush gun I think a big slow bullet would be better than a small fast one. I'm not saying it's good practice to shoot through twigs, but if somethings charging at you the bigger lump should deflect less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Andrew, you still have it good over there. You will laugh at me now... I can't find a remmy sps varmint here... used or new! looking since 3 weeks for a 243, even on a forum not one reply. Then many dealers don't have a clue. "Yes, SPS the one with a laminate wooden stock" The recession is setting in and people are slowly selling, I might get lucky. edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Just to add from whats mentioned above.....I think you would be wise to stay away from anything in .338cal. After the saga I went through with the LM being granted, then denied 2 months later and then a friend getting denied for .338 Federal, it seems anything in .338 will cause a problem. Personally I'd go with a .444 and the new hornady bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 That's exactly what I'm getting at. Some firearms depts are too retarded to know the difference between .338 Lap and .338 Federal! Anything with .338 in it could cause trouble because they assume it's all the same. At least the .444 is listed as suitable for Deer on the chart in chapter 13, so if they do decide to play up I can throw my dummy from the pram and stamp my feet knowing full well I stand a good chance of getting it. Luckily mine (apart from the .300 win mag issue) seem to have a fairly good idea what they're talking about. More than can be said for some of the forces you guys are under! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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