load development

[stephentri]

Hi hope you can see the photo of the group i shot.223 75grain amax oal 2.500 n140 5thou for the lands 5 different power weight from 23.4 to 24.6 the target dots measure 18mm where do I go from here to improve my load

Thanks Stephen

[garyw]

Stephen groups 4 and 5 are where your accurate load is-both are printing on the target at the same elevation even though you have 1 out of each doing there own thing ignore them.

reload with the same powder charges but tweak seating depth with 3-4 batches of each charge- shoot in order and record the

results you will find the load your rifle likes quickley.

[stephentri]

hi thanks for that would i be best to go for a powder weight between groups 4 and 5 or just seat the bullet deeper by 5 thou each time

thanks

[pork chop]

As gary says,did the same for my mates rifle 75 vmax 24.5 gr 140.found a load that would do 1/2" or so at 200,dont remember how far off the lands but it was in the region of 30 thou off

[garyw]

hi thanks for that would i be best to go for a powder weight between groups 4 and 5 or just seat the bullet deeper by 5 thou each time

thanks

no reload both powder weights you could if you want go above 24.6 in .3gns and see where the node is your node looks to start at 24.3 -so the accuracy "window or node" is between 24,3 and a load above 24.6 you will see the accuracy drop off when you get out of the node-of course beware of max loads in your rifle.

[Big Al]

Its clear than 4 & 5 are you best groups but its understandable that they are not as good as you might want. I would suggest when you next do any load development that you get yourself some decent targets to aim at. An 18mm dot at 100yds will be almost lost behind your reticule and it makes very precise aiming very difficult. Some of the dispersal you are seeing in those groups could easily be because you are not able to be precise enough with your aiming.

 

I like to shoot at 3" circles or boxes with an inner aim point of around 1", this allows you to quarter the target as well as picking out the middle. Its surprising just how much better my groups can be than trying to pick out a small dot.

 

I would reload a few at the same seating depth but 24.5gr, this will then give you a little leeway in your reloading of +/- 1gr as your accuracy seems to be between 24.3gr and 24.6gr - shoot a couple of groups at a bigger target and see where you are, you might find your load development is done

[Big Al]

Its clear than 4 & 5 are you best groups but its understandable that they are not as good as you might want. I would suggest when you next do any load development that you get yourself some decent targets to aim at. An 18mm dot at 100yds will be almost lost behind your reticule and it makes very precise aiming very difficult. Some of the dispersal you are seeing in those groups could easily be because you are not able to be precise enough with your aiming.

 

I like to shoot at 3" circles or boxes with an inner aim point of around 1", this allows you to quarter the target as well as picking out the middle. Its surprising just how much better my groups can be doing it this way rather than trying to pick out a small dot that gets lost.

 

I would reload a few at the same seating depth but 24.5gr, this will then give you a little leeway in your reloading of +/- 1gr as your accuracy seems to be between 24.3gr and 24.6gr - shoot a couple of groups at a bigger target and see where you are, you might find your load development is done, if not then look at seating depth backing away 10 thou at a time.

[gbal]

+1,especially on Al's points.

Target dots can be too imprecise,on their own...I'd stay with 24.5 ish,and try seating depth changes by say 5 thou-but make some targets that optimise your scope/rifle load first and check...

 

Simple crosses fit cross hairs on scopes rather well-just thick enough to fit onto.If your rifle has a dot,dot targets are fine-sit the target on your dot to make an 8-your eye will help centre it consistently.Use max clear magnification for testing. Then you are less likely to get minor aiming errors-4&5 out of group shots could easily be such-and maybe not ,of course. And remember a gentle few mph in wind change can easily blow a bullet 1/4 inch at 100....good luck,it's promising so far.

gbal

[stephentri]

Hi I have made up 20 rounds with 24.5 grains of n140 4 at 2.500 2.495 2.490 2.485 2.480 OAL no point trying them out today as the wind is about 25mph hope to get out over the next few days I will let you know how I get on.

[gbal]

Stephen,sounds good-I do hope you really mean 5.10,15,20 thou of the lands (COAL is a very unreliable measure,as bullets can vary quite a bit in length in manufacture-more than 5 thou) but I expect you do,and have set seating depth using a comparator etc-then such bullet variations are largely eliminated-ogives being much more consistent,especially in quality bullets like Berger.

Yes,you need to test on a calm day,otherwise it's really rather a waste of time,as you will be down to quite small potential groups where wind can mess up....

Remember to incorporate the fine aiming mark advice-as precise as your scope will allow (same reason.)

 

gbal

[stephentri]

Yes I used a comparator when seating the bullets 5,10,15,20 and 25 back from the lands I also downloaded some ocw targets and got them printed out, just need the good weather.

Stephen

[stephentri]

Yes I used a comparator when seating the bullets 5,10,15,20 and 25 back from the lands I also downloaded some ocw targets and got them printed out, just need the good weather.

Stephen

[garyw]

Its clear than 4 & 5 are you best groups but its understandable that they are not as good as you might want. I would suggest when you next do any load development that you get yourself some decent targets to aim at. An 18mm dot at 100yds will be almost lost behind your reticule and it makes very precise aiming very difficult. Some of the dispersal you are seeing in those groups could easily be because you are not able to be precise enough with your aiming.

 

I like to shoot at 3" circles or boxes with an inner aim point of around 1", this allows you to quarter the target as well as picking out the middle. Its surprising just how much better my groups can be doing it this way rather than trying to pick out a small dot that gets lost.

 

I would reload a few at the same seating depth but 24.5gr, this will then give you a little leeway in your reloading of +/- 1gr as your accuracy seems to be between 24.3gr and 24.6gr - shoot a couple of groups at a bigger target and see where you are, you might find your load development is done, if not then look at seating depth backing away 10 thou at a time.

AL -good points on the aiming dots-but you should test beyond 24,6 the accuracy node is too small a window with just .3gn between 2 loads- testing loads should also include the limit to acceptable pressure in that rifle if he loads a few more beyond 24.6 he can find the end of the node shooting a few more down the tube wont harm anything but will gain a lot in his understanding of his rifles limits.i dont always stop when it looks good i stop when it looks bad and go back,if speed is not important then pick a mild accurate load that will do the task .

just my 10p worth

[stephentri]

Hi at 24.6 grains iam starting to see the primer go flat I could go a bit more but would prefer if possible not to .

[Big Al]

AL -good points on the aiming dots-but you should test beyond 24,6 the accuracy node is too small a window with just .3gn between 2 loads- testing loads should also include the limit to acceptable pressure in that rifle if he loads a few more beyond 24.6 he can find the end of the node shooting a few more down the tube wont harm anything but will gain a lot in his understanding of his rifles limits.i dont always stop when it looks good i stop when it looks bad and go back,if speed is not important then pick a mild accurate load that will do the task .

just my 10p worth

 

Im sure your right Gary but at 24.5 it looked like there was the potential for pretty decent accuracy if aiming error could be ruled out, a final tweak could come from seating depth. A bit more powder and a few extra fps in the real world I wouldn't imagine would increase the hit rate that much I reckon.

 

All good advice though

[garyw]

Hi at 24.6 grains iam starting to see the primer go flat I could go a bit more but would prefer if possible not to .

dont go beyond where you are not happy!

as AL says for a few more fps its probably not worth looking for you -although i would go to the edge and always do just to see

[stephentri]

Ok thanks for the info

[P3T3R]

I would have used a lot more variance in powder Vhitavuori suggest starting at 22.1gr and max at 25gr

 

I would have varied the seating depth more as well, have a read of this article from Berger - http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/

[gbal]

I would have used a lot more variance in powder Vhitavuori suggest starting at 22.1gr and max at 25gr

 

I would have varied the seating depth more as well, have a read of this article from Berger - http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-the-best-precision-and-accuracy-from-vld-bullets-in-your-rifle/

Hmmm....not many shooters settle for a node at the lower end of velocity (though it may well be just fine-100fps won't transform a rifle for most uses)...so initially,lots of testing at the min end might be somewhat wasteful?

If Viht say 25 is max,I'd try something like 5 each at 23.8,and up in .3 until pressure or near 25,maybe ten thou' off;then fine tune seating a bit.

The Berger article is good information IF you are shooting VLD bullets,which have a reputation for being rathe finicky about load,especially seating depth (hence the redesigned hybrids for more tolerance). The bullet here is AMax,which should be easier.

All that said,some like to test/fiddle more than others.It's nice to get a good load sorted quickly,though and it should not take 50+ rounds to get close.Since you need near ideal conditions too,'testing' in breezes etc is more an exercise in frustration,than real progress-though it is done. Each to his own,as it's important to have confidence-though that comes from the good target,not all the abandoned loads!

 

gbal

[stephentri]

hi i had started my load development lower than 23.4 but the groups were no better, it seams the rifle to be pushed towards the faster end of the scale i will try out the loads i have made if things don't improve i may have to try a different powder.

 

thanks

[gbal]

hi i had started my load development lower than 23.4 but the groups were no better, it seams the rifle to be pushed towards the faster end of the scale i will try out the loads i have made if things don't improve i may have to try a different powder.

 

Yes,sorry I meant I'd start at 23.8,and expect a good node somewhere around 24.6 ish-and that's enough-as said,very few settle for a low one,though I'd need a very good reason to trade .2 moa for 75 fps!

I'd be very surprised if you don't get good results-Vihtavuori seldom fails,if used appropriately,and you can spend a lot of time etc hunting around for a slight maybe improvement-especially with a factory barrel,which may/not already have given it's best.

(there is nearly always a better group somewhere,but you need consistent performance that is a bit better than good enough-not the freaky one offs (well,"if we ignore the flier-my fault-it's a great two shot group" kind of self deception). If it's fun to try,by all means do so,but the permutations are almost limitless...and there may -will be- a better rifle...all part of the fun,but keep it in perspective!

 

g

 

[stephentri]

Ok got out today no wind new target shot 5 different seating depths from 5thou back to 25thou target 1 and 5 look the best but still not happy with them looking at the photo what would you think I should try next.

Thanks Stephen

[garyw]

Stephen -i would get a mate to shoot the rifle with your best load and see if its you and shooting technique.

not putting you down but it could show up any handling/ set up faults you have.

on your last card group 5 looks the best in relation to the previous groups in your op so thats where the accuracy lies with the powder charge and seating depth i cant make out the powder charge on the picture.but it narrows it down to that load.

[stephentri]

All these were 24.5 grains of n140 all 4 shot groups shooting round Robin

[P3T3R]

How does the gun shoot with factory ammo, like suggested maybe let someone shoot it and see how it performs. Groups 1 and 5 defiantly the best 2 but still 1 flyer in each did the shots feel good or did you do something different. Going to assume these were shot from a stable rest (bipod and rear bag). Any details about the gun itself. Your loading procedure still a lot of variables.