Redding neck bushings

[Guesty]

I have been reloading for a number of years, but recently picked up my first neck bushing dies, a second hand set of Redding Type S neck set for my 260. The set came with a Redding nitride bushing marked .289". My loaded ammo, new Lapua brass with 140gn Amax measures 0.293", thus giving 4 thou difference if I used that bushing.

I have done some reading up online and Redding recommend 1 thou neck tension for bench rest applications, but my 260 will be used for Practical Rifle where the rounds will be bashed about in AICS magazines. My local gunshop reckons this won't be holding the bullet firmly enough and I should just use my current bushing and see how it works out.

Can anyone offer any advice?

[1967spud]

2 thou .002 is where you want to be

[Guesty]

2 thou .002 is where you want to be

Cheers Spud.

Will that hold the bullets in the neck firmly enough for my application?

BTW, do you have a nitride 291 in stock?

[1967spud]

give us a bell 01263 732740 here now

[jcampbellsmith]

I have a .292 steel bushing for sale for £15 posted. With my 260 Rem I have ended up with a series of bushings. Regards JCS

[Guesty]

I have a .292 steel bushing for sale for £15 posted. With my 260 Rem I have ended up with a series of bushings. Regards JCS

Thanks for the offer, but I've just bought a 291. If that doesn't work out then I may get back to you.

[jcampbellsmith]

Thanks for the offer, but I've just bought a 291. If that doesn't work out then I may get back to you.

 

Thanks, not a problem. I've ended up with a set running up to .295 and I've a spare steel bushing in .292. Regards JCS

[Laurie]

The Redding 'Type S' has an expander ball. It should be retained unless you turn case-necks. The correct size bushing is that which sees cases whose necks have been inside lubed just slip over the 'ball' on the press downstroke barely kissing it. If there's no resistance at all, the bushing size is too large; if it needs the same sort of effort as a standard factory (non-bushing) FL die, the bushing dia. is far too small.

[JB1]

What's the best method for neck tension, just enough to hold bullet with very little tension or more tension.

Im asking because I have recently loaded some rounds after neck turning and using bushing dies and whilst seating bullets the ram needed very little help. I am yet to shoot them, so I may increase neck tension and compare the 2 lots.

 

sorry for butting in on your post guesty,

[Guesty]

The Redding 'Type S' has an expander ball. It should be retained unless you turn case-necks. The correct size bushing is that which sees cases whose necks have been inside lubed just slip over the 'ball' on the press downstroke barely kissing it. If there's no resistance at all, the bushing size is too large; if it needs the same sort of effort as a standard factory (non-bushing) FL die, the bushing dia. is far too small.

Actually Laurie, I have made a mistake, and it's not a Type S set, but 'Competition bushing neck sizing die' set, and it doesn't have an expander ball. I'm not intending to do any neck turning, and the rifle I will be using the ammo in is a factory barrelled Tikka.

I currently use a Lee collet neck die, which I'm happy with, but the Redding set came up at a bargain price.

[Guesty]

The Redding 'Type S' has an expander ball. It should be retained unless you turn case-necks. The correct size bushing is that which sees cases whose necks have been inside lubed just slip over the 'ball' on the press downstroke barely kissing it. If there's no resistance at all, the bushing size is too large; if it needs the same sort of effort as a standard factory (non-bushing) FL die, the bushing dia. is far too small.

I just bit a quick bit of Googling about the differences between Redding Type S and Competition , and found a very informative post which I presume was yours:

 

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3750789.0

 

If I understand correctly, the Competiton is better suited to neck turned brass with more uniform case neck thickness. I won't be neck turning, but perhaps that might be mitigated somewhat as I'll only be using decent quality Lapua brass?

Perhaps I could neck down with the Competition die, then use the mandrel on my Lee collet to expand back up again?

[gbal]

What's the best method for neck tension, just enough to hold bullet with very little tension or more tension.

Im asking because I have recently loaded some rounds after neck turning and using bushing dies and whilst seating bullets the ram needed very little help. I am yet to shoot them, so I may increase neck tension and compare the 2 lots.

sorry for butting in on your post guesty,

(see Laurie's post). You will need a bit more tension if magazine loaded as they get jolted about under recoil.

gbal

[Laurie]

Single-loaded rounds that are handled gently often need very little neck-tension. It's wrong to be too prescriptive about this though as some cartridges and load combinations work best with fairly heavy tension, and some (very few) benefit from a really heavy neck crimp. Taking the latter, I found that I had to do this with most 7.62X39mm combinations - neck tension alone resulted in 100 fps + velocity spreads as the case probably doesn't hold enough powder to get the really high pressures and right burning behaviours from most ball powders used in the little Russian Short. Whether coincidental or not, my brief encounter with its upmarket, high-precision offspring (the 6PPC) and standard Viht N133 benchrest loads also suggested it likes more tension than I'd usually use. (No way use a Lee crimp die on the PPC though!)

 

I'm a fan of bushing sizers plus expander mandrels. I use Forster Bushing-Bump or Wilson bushing neck-sizers on most of the cartridges I load, choose a bushing size that's maybe a thou' on the tight side, then run a Sinclair expander mandrel through the necks afterwards having lubed the insides of the necks. This usually gives mild tension. However, there is 'mild' and 'mild'. Remember that a bench press has a lot of power - it's built to resize .300 Win Mag size cases that have been fired in slack chambers. What seems very little tension on the press handle during bullet seating may be more than you think. Try seating a bullet and pushing it in by pressing hard on the edge of the bench - it's unlikely to slip unless you've just consumed an excessive number of Weetabix or cans of spinach. When the Lee Collet neck sizer first appeared 20 odd years ago, I can remember hearing guys who'd loaded their 308 / 7.62 TR loads for yonks on their RCBS dies saying 'this thing is no damned good' and getting rid of them because the 'Bullets weren't held tight enough in the case'.

 

The important thing is often consistent neck tension as much as the actual amount as you develop the load around how the cartridge has been fitted together. Once you've got a load that suits the average tension, you want every case to have the same, or as close to the same, as you can get it.

[Laurie]

http://forum.accurat...topic=3750789.0

 

Yes, that was me back in 2010 I see. Since that time, there have been more than a few posts on AccurateShooter about the combined use of the Lee Collet die (often after a bit of customising and cleaning up the collet tines) allied to a body die for precision long-range cartridges. A fair few of the top US and Canadian FTR competitors use this method and it allegedly gives very good results. I'm going to give it a try in ammo for a 7mm-08 F-Class rifle that I pick up from the Dolphin Gun Co. next week and see how it works out.

[Guesty]

The Redding 'Type S' has an expander ball. It should be retained unless you turn case-necks. The correct size bushing is that which sees cases whose necks have been inside lubed just slip over the 'ball' on the press downstroke barely kissing it. If there's no resistance at all, the bushing size is too large; if it needs the same sort of effort as a standard factory (non-bushing) FL die, the bushing dia. is far too small.

Thanks all for help, especially you Laurie for educating me.

My 260 is certainly shooting better than with the old Lee collet die, seemingly holding elevation more consistently at 1000 yards.

Pleased with the success of the Comp neck bushing die, I have bought another bushing die, but this time a Type S neck die for my 6.5x55. Again, I have been using a Lee collet neck die with the Swede, but have noticed very light bullet seating. Bullets can't be hand pulled, but I suspect low neck tension as occasionally I get sooty brass, possibly indicating poor case obturation.

Again my Swede is a factory chamber, and I use Lapua no neck turned brass. From your tip Laurie, I should use the expander ball, with a bushing large enough so that the expander does very little work. Is there any way of working out that size, as I'll be buying online? My seated bullet necks measure 0.293".

[Laurie]

Sooted 6.5X55 cases are an occupational hazard especially in military or factory sporter rifle chambers. Changing primers sometimes sorts it. Neck tension might or might not affect it, I don't think it's the main cause if at all - I suffered this donkey's years back with brass sized in a set of dies that produced horrendous tensions and have seen it in factory ammo too.

 

You'll likely need 0.002 - 0.003" smaller bushings than the loaded round so 0.291 / 0.290", and you may even need 0.289" at some stage depending on the brass make, alloy, and how many times sized and fired. As it work hardens, a reduced sized bushing is often needed. In any event, if you have to expand the neck a little bit more than ideal, you're still performing a much smaller amount than using any standard factory die (other than the collet type) as they are invariably set up to massively over-size the case. It's instructive to measure a fired / expanded case then size it with the expander removed from the die and then remeasure to see how much actual sizing the die inflicts.

[Guesty]

Double post

[Guesty]

Under the impression gleened from the web that expanding balls were generally bad, I have already sized and made up five rounds with each of the only bushings I have (luckily 291 and 289) without the expander. The neck ODs each measured one thou smaller than the bushing, and unsurprisingly gave much firmer seating. I'll now make more with the expander in place.

The brass is x5 loaded Lapua (collet neck only previously), with 45.6gn N550 and CCI 200 under a 1x cal depth seated Nosler 120BT. Perhaps the brass is getting on a bit, but I presumed good as I have got away with many more loads from my 308 brass.

I didn't realise the Swede was known to be sooty, so if the it isn't be cured with bullet tension will change primers.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain, I very much appreciate it!

[Laurie]

Under the impression gleened from the web that expanding balls were generally bad, I have already sized and made up five rounds with each of the only bushings I have (luckily 291 and 289) without the expander.

 

 

 

As a general rule yes, but expansion may be a necessary evil. If you read Redding's and RCBS' instructions for the use of FL bushing dies, they say use the bushing only for neck-turned brass, with the supplied expander for out of the box stuff. The reason is that with outsize sizing only, you produce a concentric neck exterior, but any variations in neck thickness are still there just transferred to the inside. So you have a non-round hole that you force a perfectly round bullet into risking poor finished round concentricity. With neck-turned brass both inside and outside should be circular after sizing with the bushing alone.

 

Whether that's a real problem or not depends on how good and consistent the brass is out of the box. Even Lapua tends to have up to 1 thou' thickness variations within a single case at different points around the neck, and there may be another thou' thickness variation between the thinnest example in a box and the thickest with a 2 thou' difference between the smallest reading at any one point on any single case in the batch and the thickest.

 

So, there are good reasons to size a little more than needed and expand even with bushing dies unless you're going to neck-turn. The problem comes with your average factory FL die where the amounts of sizing / expansion are so large and where the average user drags the case-neck back over a plain steel 'ball' without any lube. As said before, most bench presses are powerful tools and if it takes substantial effort to pull the case out of the die it means that there is equally substantial resistance and that's where the chances of inconsistent or non-concentric results arise. Also .... if the decap / expander stem is at all out of true relative to the die cavity axis, or at any rate the neck part, you unknowingly force the neck out of alignment. People regularly bend the stem without being aware of it - just adjust it too deep once so it hits the bottom of a case and most examples aren't robust enough to remain true.

 

I expand nearly all of my cases, even with turned brass - a personal predilection but I'm not alone in it - but normally use a mandrel type expander as a separate operation, and with the inside neck surfaces lubed which adds yet another couple of steps (lubing + delubing). The only time I use a conventional expander ball is if I'm FL resizing 308 brass and I use a Redding Type S with the standard ball replaced by a tungsten carbide example (and still lube cases). With correct bushing size choice, you barely feel the case pass over the expander ball on a Redding Co-Ax. The Redding design sees the ball 'float' on the rod and with the carbide replacement the friction is much reduced. Checking concentricity subsequently shows it is good.

 

The reason for using a mandrel expander is that it imparts much less stress on the case, is so robust it's very unlikley to be damaged and put out out of true, 'floats' in the die body for excellent self-alignment, and I've found that Sinclair's 'E' series mandrels which are sold for pre-turning case preparation seem to provide just the amount of neck tension on the bullet that I like. (The 'T' for Turn version would add 1 additional thou' of tension for those who want more.)

 

I use this method even with turned cases neck-sized in Wilson dies and one can feel that even with everything being apparently identical, some need a little more or less effort on the press handle to be expanded. Whether all this work is worth it in terms of results is another issue and obviously depends on what you intend to load for in what sort of rifle, to shoot at what sort of distance and against what level of competition. Also, how many rounds you need to load. If I were mass producing 223 for CSR or US XTC shooting, I'd likely use a progressive press and a conventional sizer, although even here if you read Glen Zediker's book on competition ARs, he uses a mandrel expander. (However, since I can't hit a barn door in standing or kneeling shooting positions, super-ammo would be wasted on me anyway!)

[Guesty]

More great info, thank you so much Laurie.

So, the expander it is then, and it looks like I'll be searching for the carbide button upgrade to boot and stock up on Imperial dry neck lube.

[onehole]

2 thou .002 is where you want to be

Yeah it really is that simple,,,,,If you neck turned and had consistent neck wall thickness you may have enough with 1 thou but I,ve never had a good feel to it on the press handle....2 thou and neck turned necks feels really good....3 thou to me is getting grippy.

[Guesty]

More great info, thank you so much Laurie.

So, the expander it is then, and it looks like I'll be searching for the carbide button upgrade to boot and stock up on Imperial dry neck lube.

Just one last question Laurie, if you would indulge me.

It seems that it's better to expand with a mandrel instead of any sort of expander ball. If so, I'm wondering if I can get away with using the Lee collet die for that step? That would save me having to buy extra kit.

[Laurie]

I'm not sure if the collet die will do that job very well. It's not designed to work that way as the central mandrel is relatively loosely and weakly held in the die. It works by the mandrel going into the unsized neck and the collet doing the work applying inwards force onto the case neck walls to squeeze them onto a static mandrel. You could try it, but I'd reckon a proper expander die is a much better idea.

[Guesty]

Will give it a go. Cheers!