Nearest European equivalent to h4895?

[Murph]

I was just wondering what would be the closest European powder to h4895.im having trouble getting a constant supply of h4895 and I was just wondering what would have a similar burn rate in say vit powders or any other European manufacturer. Any replies or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks

[baldie]

Vhit 530 shows to be the direct equivalent according to Vhit's burn rate chart, with 135 slightly slower.

[Laurie]

This is a difficult one as H4895 has a very high specific energy rating for a single-base powder, at 4,060 KJ / Kg. By comparison, Viht N135 which might be regarded as 'similar' on the narrow (and frequently misleading) burning rate comparison basis, is rated at 3,590. That means that any given charge weight sees nearly 12% less energy produced by the Viht powder. The high energy content is what has made H4895 the darling of long-range FTR competitors using 308 Win with 155s as it will produce some scary MVs especially in Lapua 'Palma' small primer brass.

 

Viht N135 is the commercial version of the powder used by Lapua in its standard 146gn FMJBT 7.62mm Nato ammo, and is ideally suited to the relatively light bullet and lower pressures of the military cartridge. It will perform very well in 308 with 150-175gn bullets, but won't produce the velocities needed by the long-range FTR and TR competitor.

 

You don't say which cartridge you want a substitute for, but taking 308 Win as a guide here are the alternatives that actually are or might remain available:

 

IMR-4895 - the best choice. Same characteristics as the H. version and will give slightly increased velocities.

 

Ramshot Tac and Wild Boar fine grain ball. Superb powders in 308, burn cleanly and give VERY high MVs.

 

IMR-3031. Often overlooked as the 30-30 WCF's piddling little cartridge powder, 3031 is a superb performer giving small spreads and high velocities in many mid size cartridges. Suits 308 Win very well, but a little bit bulky due to long 'log' grains. Not one for those who rely entirely on traditional mechanical powder measures because of this factor.

 

Lovex DO73.6 (Accurate-2520 as was). A ball powder, Gives high MVs and often good results, but dirty.

 

Lovex SO62 (Accurate-4064 as was). A short-cut extruded powder. A very good performer in 308 especially for short / mid-range target loads with 155-175gn bullets. Won't achieve H4895 velocities though for high-end applications.

 

Viht N140,N530, and N540. N140 is the basic standard for a lot of applications that suit H4895. The N500 series can often give very high MVs, but do punish barrels a bit if loaded up to the limits.

 

We'll get Swiss 'Reload Swiss' powders later this year. RS40, RS50 (available now as TR140), and RS52 act as alternatives across the H4895 to VarGet axis, and in some cases perform better than the two Australian / US powders.

[DW58]

Very interesting Laurie, many thanks for posting.

[Murph]

Sorry for the late reply. It's for a 1-9 twist 223 Laurie. I started off with blc2 then changed to h4895. I have been getting excellent results with this powder but it has been getting very hard to get hold of this last while. Thanks for your very informative reply as always.

[dannywayoflife]

Murph as laurie says ramshot tac and wildbore are great! And they'd suit your application well. The tac would probably be your best bet unless launching 75 grainers

[Jamie]

Just thought I'd add my bit.

I use Viht N135 in my 1 in 8 .223 Rem with 55 V-max.

I get regular sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards with both 25.1 and 25.4 grains.

MV was around the 3200 for both loads. Not idea if that's good or bad....

Not seriously tried development with heavier bullets, but do intend to start with some 75 A-Max.

I've also found Viht N133 and N133 readily available in most places...

Jamie

 

Edit - Oops, I meant to say N133 and N135 are readily available near me....

Jamie

[Laurie]

N135 will work in 223 with 75s but is maybe a little fast burning. N140 / TR140 (RS50) are better matched, and N540 gives a lot higher MV. Ramshot Wild Boar should do very well with this bullet weight. Ramshot's data says max charge 24.7gn with US SAAMI 223 pressures (55,000 psi) or 26.4gn with European CIP 5.56mm pressures of 61,000 psi odd. That's with the Hornady HPBTM rather than A-Max and all at the short standard 2.26-inch COAL which restricts loads and increases pressures.

[Jamie]

N135 will work in 223 with 75s but is maybe a little fast burning. N140 / TR140 (RS50) are better matched, and N540 gives a lot higher MV. Ramshot Wild Boar should do very well with this bullet weight. Ramshot's data says max charge 24.7gn with US SAAMI 223 pressures (55,000 psi) or 26.4gn with European CIP 5.56mm pressures of 61,000 psi odd. That's with the Hornady HPBTM rather than A-Max and all at the short standard 2.26-inch COAL which restricts loads and increases pressures.

Thanks for the imput Laurie, I know nothing about "Ramshot" powders, although I have seen it sold locally to me.

Cheers

Jamie

[Laurie]

I know nothing about "Ramshot" powders, although I have seen it sold locally to me.

Cheers

Jamie

 

Ramshot is a US outfit (part of Western Powders Inc.), but it sources its ball powders from PB Clermont in Belgium, Henry Krank having got agreement to import direct from there and missing the 9,000 mile round trip via Montana out. Prices are attractive compared to Alliant / Hodgdon and their availability is good.

 

The range is entirely double-base ball, very fine grained and is a clean burning, consistent performer. PB Clermont is a world leader in ball powders and has a large R&D spend. Its powders are widely used in factory commercial sporting and even more so military ammunition. Rifle powders are here:

 

http://www.ramshot.com/products/rifle/

 

plus 'Wild Boar' which is a Europe only product. The website has downloads of very comprehensive loads data, and if you consider Wild Boar, note it has its own data pdf download requiring a second request. These powders have been available here maybe 18 months and are proving popular, Tac being the best selling grade as it suits many 223 and 308 applications.

 

I did an overview in Target Shooter magazine some months back. Since then, Hunter has become available to complete the range, but it's rather slower burning than your interest.

 

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/

[Jamie]

 

Ramshot is a US outfit (part of Western Powders Inc.), but it sources its ball powders from PB Clermont in Belgium, Henry Krank having got agreement to import direct from there and missing the 9,000 mile round trip via Montana out. Prices are attractive compared to Alliant / Hodgdon and their availability is good.

 

The range is entirely double-base ball, very fine grained and is a clean burning, consistent performer. PB Clermont is a world leader in ball powders and has a large R&D spend. Its powders are widely used in factory commercial sporting and even more so military ammunition. Rifle powders are here:

 

http://www.ramshot.com/products/rifle/

 

plus 'Wild Boar' which is a Europe only product. The website has downloads of very comprehensive loads data, and if you consider Wild Boar, note it has its own data pdf download requiring a second request. These powders have been available here maybe 18 months and are proving popular, Tac being the best selling grade as it suits many 223 and 308 applications.

 

I did an overview in Target Shooter magazine some months back. Since then, Hunter has become available to complete the range, but it's rather slower burning than your interest.

 

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/

Thanks for the indepth detail Laurie, much appreciated. I'll have a read of your overview.

Cheers

Jamie

[Murph]

Thanks for the reply Laurie I shall have to investigate these powders further. Cheers

[Jamie]

Thanks for the reply Laurie I shall have to investigate these powders further. Cheers

Apologies Murph, didn't dawn on me that I was Hijacking your thread.

Jamie

[Murph]

Apologies Murph, didn't dawn on me that I was Hijacking your thread.

Jamie

Never worry-any input is more than welcome.

[Murph]

Apologies Murph, didn't dawn on me that I was Hijacking your thread.

Jamie

Never worry-any input is more than welcome.

N135 will work in 223 with 75s but is maybe a little fast burning. N140 / TR140 (RS50) are better matched, and N540 gives a lot higher MV. Ramshot Wild Boar should do very well with this bullet weight. Ramshot's data says max charge 24.7gn with US SAAMI 223 pressures (55,000 psi) or 26.4gn with European CIP 5.56mm pressures of 61,000 psi odd. That's with the Hornady HPBTM rather than A-Max and all at the short standard 2.26-inch COAL which restricts loads and increases pressures.

I'm currently using 53gr vmaxes and hornady 75gr bthps. The vmax are loaded at 2.265 oal and the bthps are load at 2.405 oal. With the h4895 both these bullets will shoot under 1/4 moa at 100 yards. I use a blaser lrs2 and always found that it shot very well at factory lengths. But the 75 grains are much too long to seat at factory lengths so they are loaded about 70 thou from the lands which means they are just touching the powder in the case as well as having about 75 thou clearance for the magazine. I tried 75 amax but these would not stabilize in the gun. They were more like minute of barn door at 600 yards lol

[Jamie]

Never worry-any input is more than welcome.

I'm currently using 53gr vmaxes and hornady 75gr bthps. The vmax are loaded at 2.265 oal and the bthps are load at 2.405 oal. With the h4895 both these bullets will shoot under 1/4 moa at 100 yards. I use a blaser lrs2 and always found that it shot very well at factory lengths. But the 75 grains are much too long to seat at factory lengths so they are loaded about 70 thou from the lands which means they are just touching the powder in the case as well as having about 75 thou clearance for the magazine. I tried 75 amax but these would not stabilize in the gun. They were more like minute of barn door at 600 yards lol

Murph, What powder load are you using in the 53's and the 75's?

Also, how far are you pushing the 53's out to?

Cheers

Jamie

[Murph]

Murph, What powder load are you using in the 53's and the 75's?

Also, how far are you pushing the 53's out to?

Cheer

Jamie

I use 26.4 grains of h4895 for the 53s with cc400 primers and lapua brass. I use 24.5 grains of h4895 for the 75s with cci 400s and lapua brass. I've shot the 53s out to 700 yards and have shot rabbits to 670 yards as well as magpies and grey back crows and pigeons. In fairness they are a very accurate bullet- in the 1s at 100 and approaching 1/4 moa for 5 shot group at 600 but the 75 grains at those distances hit a hell of a lot harder to be fair. They hit with as much damage on rabbits as the 53s do at 100 yards. I don't know what it is about them but they are the hardest hitting round I've ever put through the rifle. I hit a rabbit at 100 yards the other week and sent my spaniel out to retrieve it and she wouldn't lift it. I wnt down the field and the rabbit was on the ground as flat as a pancake looking straight up in the air.when I lifted it the rabbit was gutted from it chin to its tail. Looked like it had been butchered. No wonder the dog didn't lift it!

[Shuggy]

I use 26.4 grains of h4895 for the 53s with cc400 primers and lapua brass. I use 24.5 grains of h4895 for the 75s with cci 400s and lapua brass. I've shot the 53s out to 700 yards and have shot rabbits to 670 yards as well as magpies and grey back crows and pigeons. In fairness they are a very accurate bullet- in the 1s at 100 and approaching 1/4 moa for 5 shot group at 600 but the 75 grains at those distances hit a hell of a lot harder to be fair. They hit with as much damage on rabbits as the 53s do at 100 yards. I don't know what it is about them but they are the hardest hitting round I've ever put through the rifle. I hit a rabbit at 100 yards the other week and sent my spaniel out to retrieve it and she wouldn't lift it. I wnt down the field and the rabbit was on the ground as flat as a pancake looking straight up in the air.when I lifted it the rabbit was gutted from it chin to its tail. Looked like it had been butchered. No wonder the dog didn't lift it!

The Hornady 75gr BTHP is the same basic bullet as used in their military/law enforcement TAP ammunition. This bullet has a reputation for fragmenting in targets at short range and producing fairly dramatic terminal ballistics. That is almost certainly what happened to your rabbit!

[Jamie]

Never worry-any input is more than welcome.

I'm currently using 53gr vmaxes and hornady 75gr bthps. The vmax are loaded at 2.265 oal and the bthps are load at 2.405 oal. With the h4895 both these bullets will shoot under 1/4 moa at 100 yards. I use a blaser lrs2 and always found that it shot very well at factory lengths. But the 75 grains are much too long to seat at factory lengths so they are loaded about 70 thou from the lands which means they are just touching the powder in the case as well as having about 75 thou clearance for the magazine. I tried 75 amax but these would not stabilize in the gun. They were more like minute of barn door at 600 yards lol

 

Thanks for the info Murph,

I wouldn't mind giving some Hornady bthp a try, but like most of the Hornady range, you can't get hold of any.....

It'll be interesting to see how well Hornady bullets sell, when they lift the suspension on most of their range and the USA folks stop panic buying...

Jamie

[Laurie]

The Hornady 75gr BTHP ................ has a reputation for fragmenting in targets at short range and producing fairly dramatic terminal ballistics.

 

 

In the days when I had a 223 SSR with 1-8 inch twist Lilja I had more than a few 'blow-ups' with the 75gn HPBT. A well worn barrel with a no doubt slightly rough start to the rifled area, a bit of barrel fouling and a bit of heat therein after two or three shot-strings allied to certain powders virtually guaranteed one shot failing to make it to the target in the final batch or two. They are fragile alright!

[Murph]

I haven't had any issues with bullets fragmenting mid flight. Maybe the 1-8 twist might be spinning them a wee bit too hard. These bullets are pretty much at the maximum length that my 1-9 twist will stabilise. If I start seeing this problem I will stick with the 53s. I don't like the idea of bullets fragmenting mid flight at all.

[Murph]

Thanks for the info Murph,

I wouldn't mind giving some Hornady bthp a try, but like most of the Hornady range, you can't get hold of any.....

It'll be interesting to see how well Hornady bullets sell, when they lift the suspension on most of their range and the USA folks stop panic buying...

Jamie

I'll check for you over here if you want. My local shop has 75gr amax and the bthps any time I go into the shop. I should be up sometime this week and I'll get you some if you want.give me a pm and let me know.

[6.5shooter]

I'll check for you over here if you want. My local shop has 75gr amax and the bthps any time I go into the shop. I should be up sometime this week and I'll get you some if you want.give me a pm and let

[Jamie]

I'll check for you over here if you want. My local shop has 75gr amax and the bthps any time I go into the shop. I should be up sometime this week and I'll get you some if you want.give me a pm and let

Apologies Murph, PM inbound.

Jamie

Edit - That threw me! You copied Murphs post?

Jamie

[Jamie]

I'll check for you over here if you want. My local shop has 75gr amax and the bthps any time I go into the shop. I should be up sometime this week and I'll get you some if you want.give me a pm and let

Apologies Murph, PM inbound.

Jamie

 

I'll check for you over here if you want. My local shop has 75gr amax and the bthps any time I go into the shop. I should be up sometime this week and I'll get you some if you want.give me a pm and let me know.

 

Apologies Murph,

PM inbound.

Jamie