hunter87 Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Can anyone tell me if police marksmen or other armed forces in the UK use lapua ammo I don't think the army ever have done but wasn't sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Can anyone tell me if police marksmen or other armed forces use lapua cartridges I don't think the army ever have done but wasn't sure The police do - I used to buy one constabularies fired cases, when they only had 2 rifles they shot it through. It was easy enough to sort it, so each batch of brass was all fired from the same rifle. When they brought more rifles I stopped, since there were simply too many variables at play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSG Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It is one of the approved 308 rounds. Most common is the Federal 165 tactical Bonded in nickel case. Choice is dictated more by bullet type than manufacturer however it does have to conform to a trial specification. As the ops ammo is very likely to be expensive, some form of ballistically matched training ammunition is often used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It is one of the approved 308 rounds. Most common is the Federal 165 tactical Bonded in nickel case. Choice is dictated more by bullet type than manufacturer however it does have to conform to a trial specification. As the ops ammo is very likely to be expensive, some form of ballistically matched training ammunition is often used. I had it in my mind that Lapua had been dropped? I remember talk of a batch primer fault and it losing approval quite a while back; hence the migration to Fed tactical and now by many Fed fusion.....could be mis-remembering! ... or the 43 fiefdoms could just be doing their own thing and ignoring supposedly 'National' direction - but surely that couldn't happen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It is one of the approved 308 rounds. Most common is the Federal 165 tactical Bonded in nickel case. Choice is dictated more by bullet type than manufacturer however it does have to conform to a trial specification. As the ops ammo is very likely to be expensive, some form of ballistically matched training ammunition is often used. Interesting! The 1991 'Good Guys' electrical store hostage-taking and police siege in Sacramento, California by a group of armed Vietnamese asylum seekers whose armed robbery had gone wrong produced multiple deaths after a police marksman's attempt to shoot the gang's ringleader while he moved through the shop entrance failed. It was described as a straightforward shot and the officer was adamant he'd made a perfect job of it, but it failed completely, due it was believed to the 168gn Sierra being deflected by the plate glass in the shop-door. A lot of subsequent work in the US and also on vehicle body penetration by pistol cartridge bullets arising from a separate 'ammunition failure' involving a police operation against a 'crack house' where the dealer turned up mid effort in a large SUV and decided to stay and fight it out from the vehicle rather than flee saw a lot of research on bullet design and recommendations for a move away from traditional target rounds for police rifle use, as well as better bullets for the .40 S&W pistol cartridge. The rifle research showed 223 (which was being widely adopted in AR-15 type rifles by American police forces at the time) was very poor in the barrier penetration role, and that the old 'gold standard' 308 load, the Federal 168gn Match was better but could easily fail as had happened in Sacramento. To people's surprise, the best bullet on the market at the time for the role was found to be the Nosler Partition, but it was an expensive proposition. Various ammunition and bullet companies went on to develop 'service' versions of their premium hunting bullets, but the 'impression' given by some American sources is that the lessons were later forgotten and police force budget considerations saw a return to using conventional target ammo in a lot of American jurisdictions. No doubt our own boys in blue have done their own research and learned from their own experiences as well as drawing on studies from elsewhere, but it's interesting to see what's apparently a specialist 'tactical' round loaded with a high-penetration bullet being standard issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Interesting! The 1991 'Good Guys' electrical store hostage-taking and police siege in Sacramento, California by a group of armed Vietnamese asylum seekers whose armed robbery had gone wrong produced multiple deaths after a police marksman's attempt to shoot the gang's ringleader while he moved through the shop entrance failed. It was described as a straightforward shot and the officer was adamant he'd made a perfect job of it, but it failed completely, due it was believed to the 168gn Sierra being deflected by the plate glass in the shop-door. A lot of subsequent work in the US and also on vehicle body penetration by pistol cartridge bullets arising from a separate 'ammunition failure' involving a police operation against a 'crack house' where the dealer turned up mid effort in a large SUV and decided to stay and fight it out from the vehicle rather than flee saw a lot of research on bullet design and recommendations for a move away from traditional target rounds for police rifle use, as well as better bullets for the .40 S&W pistol cartridge. The rifle research showed 223 (which was being widely adopted in AR-15 type rifles by American police forces at the time) was very poor in the barrier penetration role, and that the old 'gold standard' 308 load, the Federal 168gn Match was better but could easily fail as had happened in Sacramento. To people's surprise, the best bullet on the market at the time for the role was found to be the Nosler Partition, but it was an expensive proposition. Various ammunition and bullet companies went on to develop 'service' versions of their premium hunting bullets, but the 'impression' given by some American sources is that the lessons were later forgotten and police force budget considerations saw a return to using conventional target ammo in a lot of American jurisdictions. No doubt our own boys in blue have done their own research and learned from their own experiences as well as drawing on studies from elsewhere, but it's interesting to see what's apparently a specialist 'tactical' round loaded with a high-penetration bullet being standard issue. The mad thing is that the body that OKs rounds (completely forgotten the name at the moment) gave TBBC the thumbs up as the best penetrator. They answered precisely the question they were asked. When it's in-service lack of accuracy was subsequently questioned; the response was along the lines of: "you didn't ask for accuracy, you asked for penetration". .......so it's not the best compromise round to meet varied requirements, it's simply and only the best penetrator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 BD, I'm pretty sure I've read that too in American commentaries. Costs aside, this may be why many American forces have returned to the old favourite 168 and 175gn match rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSG Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 It has been an interesting ride with TB. I trialled it some years ago with a specific remit to hit a target 1 metre behind 17mm laminated glass. The trial was far from scientific but was eventually backed up by a cop from the Home Counties who got a research grant to do the study. It is somewhat iffy past 200 m in a strong wind, I much prefer the Ruag options. I have no kind words for Fusion. You cannot have a bullet that will do everything you want it to do. Mind you the financial cuts have put paid to several Police teams as of course the HK g36 with its short barrel also using TB will do everything you want it to! Ho ho I would add that most things that I have shot with it expired very rapidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 I would add that most things that I have shot with it expired very rapidly. Things tend to with most bullets By the by, I've had 7mm Rem Mag TBBC do 180 degree ricochets off perpendicular steel plate impacts. Makes you blink when you realise what that noise zipping past near your head is (Just for anyone wondering; Tac Bonded is simply the old Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) rebranded with a tacticool name.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunter87 Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 The police do - I used to buy one constabularies fired cases, when they only had 2 rifles they shot it through. It was easy enough to sort it, so each batch of brass was all fired from the same rifle. When they brought more rifles I stopped, since there were simply too many variables at play. Tiff out of interest what were the variables you mentioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Tiff out of interest what were the variables you mentioned Simply that I couldn't easily tell which rifle the brass was fired in, different head spacing/shoulder bump issues etc. Plus on a small sample I had, some of the chambers it was fired in would have been sloppy even with a 'field' go gauge… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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