Powder Characteristics Chart?

[Shootist]

Burn rate charts are easily available on the web, but I have yet to find any chart / report on the various qualities of powders, such as sensitivity to ambient temperature, bulk, or compression. My interest has been provoked following recommendations for Viht 140, which I know to be a favoured powder. But, when checking out loads on Quickload, I find that BL/C2 could give up to another 100 fps, in theory, for about the same pressure curve. That's just an example, and my choice will largely be determined by the one and a half kilos of N140 or TR140 I already have, but the differing qualities of powders has pricked my curiosity, and if there's an answer to be found anywhere, I suspect it will be found here.

[kent]

temperature sensitivity has effected otherwise good loads for me, hunting in cold conditions at high altitude. I am not a big fan of chasing another 100 fps after accuracy, sufficient energy and stabilisation to the max given range occurs personally though. BLC 2 is double base is it not? as such will burn hotter, shortening barrel life.

Quickload will do most of what you ask but it might be wise to check out some of its other features when selecting powders? It will tell you much of that which you seek. Temperature sensitivity? I doubt a manufacturer is going to say theirs is bad, so who might that data come from? Will be interesting to see if its available as I also would like it

 

My issues with cold were with N150 and 140 grn bullets in the 7-08 rem BTW. The only shots that were bad were those cold after waiting round in the mag. Every time I checked my rounds had been warmed up again traveling back to base or spares from my pocket, indicating no issues with the gun etc. Finally it clicked and I left a few rounds outside for a couple of hours

[garyw]

step up MR.HOLLAND- to blind us with science and all sorts of vodoo.

[Shootist]

temperature sensitivity has effected otherwise good loads for me, hunting in cold conditions at high altitude. I am not a big fan of chasing another 100 fps after accuracy, sufficient energy and stabilisation to the max given range occurs personally though. BLC 2 is double base is it not? as such will burn hotter, shortening barrel life.

That's exactly the sort of info I'm looking for. One of many things to be considered when choosing a powder, although I haven't a clue as to what a double base powder is or why it should burn hotter.

[Laurie]

step up MR.HOLLAND- to blind us with science and all sorts of vodoo.

 

 

Cheeky B+GG+R !!!!

 

QuickLOAD almost invariably gives the highest MVs to Re15 and Re17, Win 760 / H414 (same thing in different bottles), H. BL-C(2), and no doubt in future updated versions, AR-COMP and 2000-MR depending on the cartridge, bullet weight etc. They are all ball or small-kernel high-density DOUBLE-BASED powders. the key words are 'double-base' - pack a load of nitroglycerine into the mix and you get more energy = more velocity, but also more heat and potentially faster barrel wear. The high density often physically allows more powder into the case which often equals packing more energy in too subject to the burning rate and other factors determining peak pressure. Ball powders often burn dirty though and leave a really hard to shift burned on fouling on the outside of case-necks.

 

So, beware of Greeks bearing gifts or in this case QuickLOAD promising another 100 fps - you get nowt for nowt and the load combination might or might not give great groups. (You don't hear of a lot of people recommending BL-C(2) for 308 F/TR, TR, Match Rifle etc, but lots of people recomemnding N140 and VarGet for instance.)

 

Burning rate charts are only very general guides and long experience and much misplaced optimism and barrel wear and tear trying things out has shown me that because powder B has an apparently identical burning rate to powder A on the charts (Viht N140 v H380 ball powder for instance) guarantees very little worthwhile, neither similar MVs or groups. Individual cartridge volume / bore size / bullet weight & configuration combinations like individual powders, simple as that and the trick is to find them, the easy way being to see what successful shooters use.

 

What we are seeing now is a big shift in propellant capabilities mostly driven by the military, and that in turn largely driven by US experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. After years of being told the 5.56 is fine and 'grunts' don't need to be able to hit anything smaller than a barn door at 50 paces, suddenly the US military is awash with optically sighted 7.62mm 'marksman' and sniper rifles, many semi-auto as in the US M110 Knight's Armaments SR25 and UK L129A1 'Sharpshooter' built by another US company. Then they found that lying around in 120-deg heat saw pressures go through the roof at the very least affecting long-range performance, so everybody wants temperature insensitive powders. The latest generation of ball / spherical powders - H. CFE223, 2000-MR, all Ramshot rifle powders are much less temperature affected than the likes of BL-C(2), and we're getting even more tolerant stick powders than the 1st generation Hodgdon Extreme types - IMR-8208 XBR, Alliant AR-COMP. They usually start by taking an existing grade and modifying it - H4895 and Re15 here - which not only makes them temperature tolerant, but affects the burning rate slightly giving a new grade in effect.

 

The upshot is we're getitng new and better powders in many cases, and it becomes easier to find something to fine tune a load - or harder as the choice keeps increasing!

 

To go back to the original question - NO, there is no such chart, and I'd imagine it'd be imposiible to produce one - powders behave differently in different applications.

[Andrew]

 

To go back to the original question - NO, there is no such chart, and I'd imagine it'd be imposiible to produce one - powders behave differently in different applications.

 

True that. If I can add my most favorite, extreme example? When 4831 was cheap I would load everything with it. Most shooters think of this powder in cartridges like the 30-06, 270, etc where is delivers good usable pressures and velocities. If you take that same powder and put it in straight walled case like a 45-70, it behaves much like black powder. I would shoot 53 grains of H4831 in an 1884 Trapdoor Springfield military rifle (one of the weakest rifles chambered in that caliber) with no ill effects and black powder velocities.~Andrew

 

(PS: It's amazing how many shooters would ease themselves away from me on the firing line when I offered that I was shooting 4831 in a Trapdoor...)

[Laurie]

A good example.

 

A friend used to have a Ruger No.1 in .45-70 and he had some wicked H4831sc loads for the cartridge using heavy home-cast lead bullets over a massive compressed charge. I think it might have been a 'duplex' load too - a small amount of pistol powder loaded fiirst in the case before the main charge as per some black powder 45-70/90/120 etc loads.

 

He'd wander around Pickering Range on Sundays trying to look innocent and inveigle innocents with the patter: 'Have a shot with my new load - it doesn't kick hard, honest!' Not only am I wary of metaphorical Greeks and their gifts, but even more so jokers with 45s that don't kick hard, so never fell for that one.

[Andrew]

A good example.

 

A friend used to have a Ruger No.1 in .45-70 and he had some wicked H4831sc loads for the cartridge using heavy home-cast lead bullets over a massive compressed charge. I think it might have been a 'duplex' load too - a small amount of pistol powder loaded fiirst in the case before the main charge as per some black powder 45-70/90/120 etc loads.

 

He'd wander around Pickering Range on Sundays trying to look innocent and inveigle innocents with the patter: 'Have a shot with my new load - it doesn't kick hard, honest!' Not only am I wary of metaphorical Greeks and their gifts, but even more so jokers with 45s that don't kick hard, so never fell for that one.

I have a Siamese Model 98 Mauser in 45-70. I would load 59.5 grains of H4895 and a 400 grain Speer. It shot minute of angle and bruised many a shoulder of unsuspecting tough guys! ~Andrew

 

PS: I'm older now. I can't imagine shooting those loads today!

[Laurie]

I have a Siamese Model 98 Mauser in 45-70. I would load 59.5 grains of H4895 and a 400 grain Speer. It shot minute of angle and bruised many a shoulder of unsuspecting tough guys! ~Andrew

 

PS: I'm older now. I can't imagine shooting those loads today!

 

Ah, a real genuine Siamese Mauser converted to 45-70 owner - Wow!

 

When I got my first copy of Frank de Haas' book on Bolt Action Rifles (many, many moons ago) giving a gunsmith's perceptions on building custom rifles on near every military and many commercial actions, I thought that this Siamese Mauser as a basis for a really strong 45 looked cool. (The other thing I rermember most strongly from this issue was the cheapo German inter-war B/A two-shot shotguns built on Mauser 98 actions that had the front of the bolt machined off including the locking lugs, so they used the third 'safety' lug as the locking mechanism. Scary stuff !!)

 

I've never seen or heard of one in the UK though, but then I see you're in Montana. By the time the Ruger No. 1 appeared, I'd learned sense and decided that heavy 45-70 loads were things I could happily survive without.

[Andrew]

I knew Frank D'Hass. I sent him technical data on the Werndl single shot for his updated Single Shot Rifles and Actions. (I had rebarreled one to 45-70)When I wrote to ask of his progress I got a letter from his son Mark saying he'd passed away, with a copy of the obituary and funeral service enclosed. I still have it along with a book or two he autographed for me. But to the Siamese...

 

I have owned three of them. My first two were given away as gifts, I have had my current one for 30+ years now. I paid $125 for it. If you do come across one, be sure the bolt face has been opened. The Siamese round has a smaller rim then the 45-70 and many were mistakenly put together with no alteration. It can be a PIA to fix.

 

The worst kicking 45 I built was a 45-90 on a Number 4 Enfield action. The rims were turned off and the magazine converted to a single stack. The idea came from Handloader or Rifle magazine back in the mid eighties. With 300 grain "express" bullets it was positively punishing to shoot. I still have the reamer and the brass if you want to give it a go......

 

I hated those ("Geco"??) mauser shotguns. I've seen several that were snapped in two at the thumb cut. I always wondered if that was due to heavy loads being absorbed on that safety lug.~Andrew

[Laurie]

Andrew.

 

A small world indeed! Many thanks for passing those insights on - fascinating.

 

Re the 2-shot Mauser shotguns, yes, I think they were called Geco Guns. Apart from the locking arrangements, I recall de Haas writing that they had a new none too secure detachable bolt-head fitted for anything bigger than a 28-Bore, and that the design was such that if the bolt-head was lost (as they often were), they would still chamber and fire a cartridge with massive excess headspace and the rear end of the cartridge completely unsupported. Now that would ruin your day, if not your face, eyes and left hand!

 

As to the kind offer of brass and reamer for a No.4 Enfield based .45-90 - well, I think I'll give that a miss if you don't mind. (Take a rain check as you might put it if I've got my American-English phraseology right?) I've got a .444 Marlin levergun and factory Hornady 265gn loads in it are definitely as hard kicking as I'd ever want to shoot nowadays.

 

Regards,

Laurie

[Andrew]

Andrew.

 

A small world indeed! Many thanks for passing those insights on - fascinating.

 

Re the 2-shot Mauser shotguns, yes, I think they were called Geco Guns. Apart from the locking arrangements, I recall de Haas writing that they had a new none too secure detachable bolt-head fitted for anything bigger than a 28-Bore, and that the design was such that if the bolt-head was lost (as they often were), they would still chamber and fire a cartridge with massive excess headspace and the rear end of the cartridge completely unsupported. Now that would ruin your day, if not your face, eyes and left hand!

 

As to the kind offer of brass and reamer for a No.4 Enfield based .45-90 - well, I think I'll give that a miss if you don't mind. (Take a rain check as you might put it if I've got my American-English phraseology right?) I've got a .444 Marlin levergun and factory Hornady 265gn loads in it are definitely as hard kicking as I'd ever want to shoot nowadays.

 

Regards,

Laurie

Just let me know if you ever change your mind on the reamer; rain check accepted. One of my favorite single shots was a 1902 Remington Rolling Block (a smokeless 7x57 action)fitted with a 1-18" twist Douglas barrel and chambered in .444 Marlin. I fitted a hammer fly so that I could get a very nice trigger pull without snagging the half cock notch and shot at our local 100 yard cast bullet matches with it. I have a 465 grain GC bullet that would shoot as well as my young eyes could hold. I don't remember what happened to that rifle....~Andrew