Is it always best to steer clear of cheap old rifles??

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

I'm a newbie on here and wondered what people thought of he topic?

Are their certain old cheap rifles not to touch at all or are there some bargains to be had that may get you on the firearms ladder so to speak?

Mainly in talking about .22lr .22wmr and .223 calibre rifles as these are the areas I am trying to get info on

 

Thanks in advance

 

Mike

[kent]

.22 lr is far more likely to rust out than shoot out and a well cared for example should last generations, just check on parts availability on all older perhaps discontinued models of all guns as they are expensive if they need to be made. . The average .22 wmr don't get shot too much due to its limitations and more expensive ammo, again very long barrel life. .223 rem, well a range gun is easy enough to spot with all the bluing worn off the bolt knob yet few battle scars from fences and walls like a foxing gun. Many owners of .223's might buy a box of 20 factory rounds a year and fire say ten zero checking and ten into foxes, they wont look minty though as they will get slung in the back of the truck and rested on walls, put down in wet grass etc. but will have a load more life in them than someone's Sunday morning range gun firing 30 rounds or more often rapid fire most weeks, sometimes with cheap squady fodder

Yes some bargains to be had, problem is is knowing how to spot a good one as 1-4-1 variations are a pain in the you know what at times

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

appreciate the comments

from what info i have gleaned from the world wide web it look like picking up an older .22LR and a.223 for foxes

is there any particular brands and models in these calibres to not consider buying at all?

condition externally isnt to much of a problem as they will be used out and about

another option is to purchase a brand new .17HMR possibly as that is a bit more multi purpose when varminting?

[gbal]

appreciate the comments

from what info i have gleaned from the world wide web it look like picking up an older .22LR and a.223 for foxes

is there any particular brands and models in these calibres to not consider buying at all?

condition externally isnt to much of a problem as they will be used out and about

another option is to purchase a brand new .17HMR possibly as that is a bit more multi purpose when varminting?

Check the ballistics-while the .17HMR is an improvement on the 22rf(100yards) and will stretch on a low wind day to maybe 175 y for small vermin,it is not in the 223 league,which can be 300yards,with a good scope/shooter/low wind.Expense of course increases accordingly- you will soon realise there are no free lunches!

A quality rifle is always a better option,and worth fixing.Avoid really cheap options,unless you see it shoot well.Currently,Tikkas are understandably popular,and therefore many are available used,but a good Remington can be ok,and a big choice used.I'd rather have an old but tested sako,and would pay a little more for it,as with any of the quality makes,but it's down to the individual rifle,you have to quite like it,but remember it has to perform well.Don't buy unless you try-and don't use cheap ammo-you tend to get cheap results,which tell you little about the rifle.A decent but not outstanding factory varmint rifle should manage 1/2 moa ie half an inch for 3 shots at 100 yards.Better is a bonus,maybe buy it;worse than 3/4 inch is going to disappoint too often.)

Your cartridge/calibre choice be decided by use-if you don't have anywhere where there are many 250 yard shots,you don't need a 250 yard rifle..up to 100y the 22rf is very cheap to run,and a lot of fun.Plenty of 17HMRs coming on the market-unlikely to be shot out,maybe just didn't fulfil the optimistic ideas of their owners.Take the wind drift figures VERY seriously,and bear in mind you will not be able to judge the wind very well out where your target is,to make consistent first shot hits.

 

gbal

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

Cheers gbal

Wish I'd joined the forum sooner

I don't have a huge budget and would like to get a .22lr and .223 to get me started as that gives me good versatility and covers all bases of smaller vermin up to foxes and the .22 ammo is cheap as chips even for decent stuff, I wouldn't be Irving a huge amount through the .223 anyways.

[kent]

I seriously don't see many new shooters getting 1/2 moa at 100yds, indeed even 1". .22 lr is your friend and the one gun that all rifle shooters should have. As a field gun for foxes and longer range the hmr is IMO a waste of space compared to a small centre fire .22 Hornet, Fireball. Case in point of recommendations the Hornet if you can find a cared for CZ 527 or Bruno is an excellent choice, will do everything the HMR can and so much more. No rust in the bore and a nice clean bolt face, everything functioning on feed and I should have every confidence in it being a shooter. Some nice CZ 452's hitting the dealers shelves at present on the rimfire market as gun tarts get seduced by the new 455's and their laminate stocks, it is here I should look for the rimfires OR a nice sako finfire!

If I was looking for a gun for life in .222 or .223 and didn't have a stash of cash available from the get go it would be towards a Sako Vixen or 75 varmint I should look, the plan would then be to re-barrel maybe re-stock it, certainly bed it all over time. Still your probably looking at £500+ or so for the original gun, though to be fair look at the cost of a custom mag fed action and trigger group without the stock and existing barrel, its still a bargain. Bit of work new tube from day one and it will set you back less than a new sako 85 new off the rack and be much more of a gun to my mind

My mate bought a CZ527 in the Kevlar stock last year, it had a bit of a fault that stopped it showing us what it could do. It took a little finding but was a quick fix, that gun is now a shooter and it still needs a skim bedding but case in point that HS Kevlar stock with an Ali bedding block will set you back more than he paid for the whole gun. Buying a used gun is sometimes like buying a "non runner" at a car auction, sometimes it pays off big time but its still a risk. The risk can be negated though by the sum of the parts

[sonic]

You can't go far wrong with a Brno 22lr or CZ.

[gbal]

Cheers gbal

Wish I'd joined the forum sooner

I don't have a huge budget and would like to get a .22lr and .223 to get me started as that gives me good versatility and covers all bases of smaller vermin up to foxes and the .22 ammo is cheap as chips even for decent stuff, I wouldn't be Irving a huge amount through the .223 anyways.

Ok that makes a lot of sense.You can save a bit by reloading the CFs,but you do need to factor in some outlay on equipment-not a lot,but £100 at least?

Just keep an eye on what is for sale-there are some pretty good 22rfs for way under £200,and 223s for less than £500,and these are by no means bottom prices.Ditto scopes-you don't need the latest £1500 ones,very few do!.Think more £50 for the 22rf,and maybe £200 for a used but decent CF scope-more if you can,but we all start modestly....again,scope should be decided by useage,not needless complexity nor utter simplicity....unless that is what you need.The 22rf does not need more than 8x,the 223 might well benefit from the option to go to twice that,or more.As always,listen to what people say,some of them are well informed,otherwise expect contradictions,try things out for yourself whenever possible.

You do not need to rebarrel or restock or add magazines at a cost that will treble the purchase price-if the rifle is ok.A rebarrel will cost around £700,more than a used sako,which are made pretty well to begin with.

I have custom rifles,but these are not the way to start,and are only marginally better ,in reality,than some used sakos I have had,yet cost up to ten times as much....£750 budget can go a long way,even for two rifles and scopes ,if one is a 22rf.You may not do significantly better in varminting performance at twice that.But enjoy,you can always spend more,lots of us do.

Gbal

[pork chop]

as already said you wont go far wrong with a cz ,tikkas can be found for good money was tempted last month with a tikka 595 in 222 was only £475 i think it was but i had no real need for it,some good deals private too as not much seems to be selling at the moment

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

I was looking at cz/brno 452 around £130-£180

And cz527 in .223 about the £250-350 mark

Already have a hawke 6x42 and Nikko Stirling diamond 4-12x56 so think those bases should be covered.

[pork chop]

ive had 4 or 5 cz rimfires in one form or another and every one has shot well ,my mate has a 527 in 22 hornet that is very accurate and im hoping to buy a 527 in 22 hornet on sunday .if the ones your looking at have been looked after you wont go far wrong

[gbal]

I was looking at cz/brno 452 around £130-£180

And cz527 in .223 about the £250-350 mark

Already have a hawke 6x42 and Nikko Stirling diamond 4-12x56 so think those bases should be covered.

Fine-you should not get many arguments about CZ/BRNO as very fine rifles for those sort of prices.Scopes will do too.I'd only add,try to shoot the 223 at least,to check it shoots acceptably.Bling,club house cred and gofast stripes aside,many many such rifles and scopes do most all that their owner want of them,and that does not mean they have low expectations,or ability,or sheer enjoyment levels.

Gbal

[kent]

Ok that makes a lot of sense.You can save a bit by reloading the CFs,but you do need to factor in some outlay on equipment-not a lot,but £100 at least?

Just keep an eye on what is for sale-there are some pretty good 22rfs for way under £200,and 223s for less than £500,and these are by no means bottom prices.Ditto scopes-you don't need the latest £1500 ones,very few do!.Think more £50 for the 22rf,and maybe £200 for a used but decent CF scope-more if you can,but we all start modestly....again,scope should be decided by useage,not needless complexity nor utter simplicity....unless that is what you need.The 22rf does not need more than 8x,the 223 might well benefit from the option to go to twice that,or more.As always,listen to what people say,some of them are well informed,otherwise expect contradictions,try things out for yourself whenever possible.

You do not need to rebarrel or restock or add magazines at a cost that will treble the purchase price-if the rifle is ok.A rebarrel will cost around £700,more than a used sako,which are made pretty well to begin with.

I have custom rifles,but these are not the way to start,and are only marginally better ,in reality,than some used sakos I have had,yet cost up to ten times as much....£750 budget can go a long way,even for two rifles and scopes ,if one is a 22rf.You may not do significantly better in varminting performance at twice that.But enjoy,you can always spend more,lots of us do.

Gbal

I think you miss understood my point, buy a used but good action and shoot the whole gun. Over time as funds allow you can improve it. I should expect a well bedded, custom barrelled sako vixen or the likes to out-shoot or at least be as good as a brand new off the shelf 85. This is often a better choice than buying say a Howa or T3 with its plastic parts oversize action etc then once its shot out its questionable economically to re-barrel such a thing. Now buy that new 85 and in 5 yrs time (that you might have been shooting the "as original" clean s/h centrefire)that shiny new gun has likely lost the value of the second hand ones purchase price in full. Now this viewed in parallel writes of the second hand purchase. An added advantage is you might decide with time and experience that a wildcat chambering suits you needs / wants better, that option is then available if desired.

 

Do the maths £500+ £700 against a new rifle of comparable quality today. The comparable is a bit mute with me as I feel many firearms have been going backwards over the last ten to fifteen years in favour of cost accountants wishes and not the engineers inherent desire to build a better mouse trap

 

My best recommendation remains with a nice but well priced CZ 527 cf 452 rf / Bruno for both. Paying around £750 for the pair possibly including attached cheaper range scopes, mounts and moderators? Direct or dealer ( the advantage to the former is often being able to see them shot, sometimes though not always price)

[gbal]

I think you miss understood my point, buy a used but good action and shoot the whole gun. Over time as funds allow you can improve it. I should expect a well bedded, custom barrelled sako vixen or the likes to out-shoot or at least be as good as a brand new off the shelf 85. This is often a better choice than buying say a Howa or T3 with its plastic parts oversize action etc then once its shot out its questionable economically to re-barrel such a thing. Now buy that new 85 and in 5 yrs time (that you might have been shooting the "as original" clean s/h centrefire)that shiny new gun has likely lost the value of the second hand ones purchase price in full. Now this viewed in parallel writes of the second hand purchase. An added advantage is you might decide with time and experience that a wildcat chambering suits you needs / wants better, that option is then available if desired.Do the maths £500+ £700 against a new rifle of comparable quality today. The comparable is a bit mute with me as I feel many firearms have been going backwards over the last ten to fifteen years in favour of cost accountants wishes and not the engineers inherent desire to build a better mouse trapMy best recommendation remains with a nice but well priced CZ 527 cf 452 rf / Bruno for both. Paying around £750 for the pair possibly including attached cheaper range scopes, mounts and moderators? Direct or dealer ( the advantage to the former is often being able to see them shot, sometimes though not always price)

[gbal]

I think you miss understood my point, buy a used but good action and shoot the whole gun. Over time as funds allow you can improve it. I should expect a well bedded, custom barrelled sako vixen or the likes to out-shoot or at least be as good as a brand new off the shelf 85. This is often a better choice than buying say a Howa or T3 with its plastic parts oversize action etc then once its shot out its questionable economically to re-barrel such a thing. Now buy that new 85 and in 5 yrs time (that you might have been shooting the "as original" clean s/h centrefire)that shiny new gun has likely lost the value of the second hand ones purchase price in full. Now this viewed in parallel writes of the second hand purchase. An added advantage is you might decide with time and experience that a wildcat chambering suits you needs / wants better, that option is then available if desired.Do the maths £500+ £700 against a new rifle of comparable quality today. The comparable is a bit mute with me as I feel many firearms have been going backwards over the last ten to fifteen years in favour of cost accountants wishes and not the engineers inherent desire to build a better mouse trapMy best recommendation remains with a nice but well priced CZ 527 cf 452 rf / Bruno for both. Paying around £750 for the pair possibly including attached cheaper range scopes, mounts and moderators? Direct or dealer ( the advantage to the former is often being able to see them shot, sometimes though not always price)

 

I absolutely agree.

Night hawke has since indicated what he is intending to do very sensibly,and his costing is sensible.

I can't see any improvement in sakos or tikkas since the pre 75/85 models,though the 75 is a PPC so can't be directly compared.It does not however outshoot my old AI action 222.

I had no complaints either about a couple of old (55/65) action tikkas,but I doubt that they were better really than an probably above average Rem700 from the nineties.

I'd certainly be happy to use that sort of vintage as donor action,as are many smiths,so presumably quite a sensible starting point.

That said,and also been done,I don't think everyone needs to go that route,except of course to indulge a wildcat fancy/fantasy,and why ever not!?

[pork chop]

does it have to be a 223 there,s some very good deals on gun trader on 222,s back in the day was the 222 the cartridge,it will pritty much do what the 223 will

[gbal]

does it have to be a 223 there,s some very good deals on gun trader on 222,s back in the day was the 222 the cartridge,it will prirry much do what the 223 will

Indeed,it's a great little cartridge.Limited,if at all,only by almost non existent choice of barrel twists-which is what may give the 223s an advantage.But within it's design envelope, ( up to) 52g to 275 yards it is excellent,and can be great value second hand,with care.A real classic,still among the best,excellent acccuracy potential,only PPC betters it.

Gbal

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

I had thought about that but most rifles do seem to be older

Brno fox

Cz527

Seen something I hadn't seen called a weirach hw60

All under £300

Any one see any benefits either for the .222 or the .223 or is ther no real difference.

[pork chop]

all depends on what you want to do under 300 yrd foxes and other vermin theres not much in it ,if you want to push range a little more or its for range use go for the 223 as you could use 60 to 90 gr bullets with the right twist barrel.just because a gun is a little older dont right it off

[gbal]

I had thought about that but most rifles do seem to be older

Brno fox

Cz527

Seen something I hadn't seen called a weirach hw60

All under £300

Any one see any benefits either for the .222 or the .223 or is ther no real difference.

Therereally isn't much difference unless you have a special need.....

Once upon a time,there were very few heavy (55g plus) or light (40 g or less) 224 bullets(all the 22 cfs are 224).The relatively slow 1 in 14 222 handled these very well indeed,and was once the top accuracy cartridge at short range (say 200Y).The slightly later 223 was a military development,initially available in relatively slow twists too.Then the military introduced heavier 223 bullets (69g plus),and to stabilisem them,and with the increasing number of other heavy bullets,the fast twist barrels started to appear in 223 especially,like 1 in 9,and even more recently 1 in 8,which can handle/stabilise 80 g bullets,which are good enough to stretch out to maybe 600y,though perhaps not quite with the excellent accuracy of the light bullets.With the slower twist in the older rifles,you have a slight accuracy edge for 222,and a slight velocity advantage for 223.I'd take the accuracy,as a varmint cartridge,out to their limits around 300 yards.But they are close enough for it to be down to individual rifles,especially in the better makes (sako eg).If you really want to shoot 600y targets and have to have one or the other,clearly a newer fast twist 223 is the way to go.Many who have newer 223s will rightly like them a lot,many who have good 'old ' 222s will also correctly think they are excellent.

There are no appreciable differences in ammo costs,barrel life etc,and quite often the same model rifle was available in either cartridge.Neither will disappoint,so long as you don't push too far.If you really need 5/600 yards there are better cartridges anyhow (6BR won't get many arguments).Both have enough choice of bullets/powders etc ,even the slow twist -but it never was a limitation anyhow for accuracy.'Mil surp' ammo is sometimes mentioned in 223-though it isn't that much cheaper,esp for the handloader,and is usually of indifferent accuracy,and in any case is FMJ,so simply not appropriate for live quarry.

So,down more to the individual rifle,I can't see a slow twist 223 ahead of the truly classic and very good 222.(subject,as above,to the 300 yard envelope),but it's a pretty close run thing,as anyone who has actually used both will say,if being realistic....(heart 222,head its a draw).

Gbal

[Swamp Donkey]

I see lots of arguments for a faster twist .223

But, on the lower end of the budget, reality says it will be a 1:12" in .223, which still rules out the milsurp ss109 62gr bullets for range use as they are long for weight and don't stabilise in a 12 twist.

Personally, I think .222 is a good option if its a foxing/field gun, my reasons,

 

 

.223 is a military chambering, the yanks are still buying all the .223/5.56 ammo they can, so we all suffer the lack of ammo, powders etc

 

.222 is NOT a military chambering, rifles in this chambering are popular on the continent due to the 'no military caliber' rule in a lot of Europe, so that means (in my mind at least) that the euro ammo manufacturers will cater nicely for the .222, so ammo 'shortages' should be less of an impact to anybody using a 'triple deuce'

 

Then, when time comes, re-barrel it to a tight .223, or one of the others using that bolt face, .20tac etc

 

I'm just about to pick up a triple deuce for this very reason, does all a 12 twist .223 does, and when funds allow, it will be off to Dasherman once my sako has its nice .260 barrel done

 

Pete

[Mount Hawke Sniper]

Thanks

I think 250 yards wil be my maximum

So maybe a .222 is an option

Are there any low end options anyone can recommend?

[Crosshair]

My friend has a old BSA .222 with a heavy barrel. By Christ is it accurate with Hornady factory 50g Vmax.

I was a bit 'meh' when he brought it over until he shot a crow at 180y as it walked along. He then shot one at 220 yards.

Next field, I spotted a squirrel in the grass strip at about 170y away and called my shot as being through his shoulder.

That's right where it hit!

 

Considering I was about to splash the cash on a Steyr pro varmint .223 in the week, I did wonder if a cheap second hand one might be a better option.

 

I am happy with my new gun but that old .222 does the exact same job!

[pork chop]

hi buddy what do you really want to spend ,dauntseyguns has a nice looking rem 700 for £300 no dout one from the eightys much better than the ones they make

today a very good place to start as you could upgrade if thats what you wanted,or they have a tikka 595 with mod for £495 that would be my choice just love that tikka action.if they are more than you want to spend i go for a cz

[pork chop]

just had a better look at the tikka and its fitted with a rail and a 5 shot mag bargain