BBC News Boar cull?

[shooter79]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22430736

 

Are they growing in numbers that much?

 

Tonights news BBC.

 

Thoughts?

 

[kent]

probably not but their poop is quite noticable

[maxxis35]

Leave them be I say, no need to cull them,seems we want to live in a well managed world with very little room for nature.

[sonic]

Leave them be I say, no need to cull them,seems we want to live in a well managed world with very little room for nature.

We already live in a well managed world. The fact we have the diversity of wildlife we have is a direct consequence of farming game management and to a lesser extent wildlife reserves.

Hit one at seventy on the M6 and then tell us you want them left alone.

[Missed]

Manage to live with them reasonably OK on the Continent. This Country loves to scare itself with doomsday scenarios to the point were people loose touch with reality. In Germany boar used to go through the bins at night and yet there was not a huge problem with human/boar encounters; quite the opposite in fact as many people are of the opinion that the quality of the forest is quite dependant on a healthy boar population.

[maxxis35]

We already live in a well managed world. The fact we have the diversity of wildlife we have is a direct consequence of farming game management and to a lesser extent wildlife reserves.

Hit one at seventy on the M6 and then tell us you want them left alone.

[maxxis35]

You don't get what I mean, the fact we think they are a problem is because us humans get everywhere to the point nature has to move out or we kill them, scientists will tell you this, take the Deer population for instance, no natural predator hence massive population of them, I've hunted in the past and know it doesnt make that much difference to them, I could go on about mans tampering with nature but I won't, we need to work with nature not against it,then maybe hunting and its participants won't get so much of s hard time.

[baldie]

Sooner rather than later we will see fatalities to humans in car accidents caused by Deer and to a lesser extent, Boar. The numbers are that out of control.

 

They have not been a naturalised species in the UK since the middle ages, and then their numbers were checked by hunting.

 

Bring back Hunting .

 

Especially with a pig sticker.............

[Dustyman]

We've "&£:;ed the system so we need to manage it , there's enough room for managed populations to live along side humans in the natural world . They were only missing from the Eco system in the uk cus we hunted them to extinction locally . If you don't want em on your land put a fence or wall round it , same for the motorways that way u can't hit em at speed. Certainly manage the population but why remove them completely ? Always seems the first knee jerk reaction in this country , if a few don't like summat , ban it or remove it . The only reason a boar will be on a motorway is cus we are on his land , we can read the warning signs and slow down , he can't !

[Laurie]

I've no opinions / knowledge about the place of the animals in our environment and the need for culling, although I used to shoot TR occasionally with a Defra scientist from the department's field station at Sand Hutton near York who'd worked on the boar issue some years back and been involved on the basic (need to cull and if so making it legal) issue, also the practicalities (close seasons, minimum calibre / ME requirements etc). Obviously, he and his colleagues decided there was a need to cull and/or validity in classifying the animal as a recreational fieldsports quarry.

 

What I am pretty certain of is what's driving the clamour to cull from the general public, maybe the police and some other public organisations. That's twofold. First, the townie / village dweller who thinks the countryside is a huge park managed by others (he/she doesn't care who or why as long as they don't a) 'spoil it by putting certain 'undesirable' animals / crops on the land, b close off access, and c) demand any payment for all the work!)

 

Throw in another key aspect / issue - DOGS. I don't mean working dogs, I mean out and out pets, the two King Charles spaniel type owner. These people see woodland paths as the ideal means for the human to get some exercise and commune with nature and its flora / fauna, the the pet(s) likewise plus the stimulation of a bit of 'harmless enjoyment' like chasing the squirrels on being let off the lead. The fact that they go around disturbing the wildlfe all over the place including (potentially fatally), any ground nesting birds is either totally unknown to these people or if it's pointed out to them, angrily denied.

 

It was extreme versions of such people who closed Strensall Ranges, an SSSI for its fauna and large number of endangered ground-nesting bird species by serially trespassing in the Danger Area while live firing was taking place some years back - at a time when Strensall was a key facility for training up TA soldiers being deployed overseas in one of Tony Blair's many shooting wars, I forget which. The individuals concerned were unconvinced of the MoD's need for live firing training, yet more unconvinced by the threatened danger to their persons. The ringleader said the Army was indulging in scare tactics, if a bullet missed the sand backstop, he and his friends were safe two or three hundred yards further back, as bullets wouldn't hurt them at that distance. Yes really - there are people that stupid around! Interestingly, the same numpty asserted he was a 'friend of and expert in nature' having walked dogs as man and boy for decades on Strensall Common, obviously quite unaware of the existence of protected reptiles and many ground-nesting birds there that his dogs would disturb. (Shame an adder never bit him or his blasted pooches!)

 

SO ... throw in a potentially dangerous wild animal that certainly will turn on and maybe kill a threat like the darling canines, maybe even attack their 'innocent' owners if enraged enough by a piglet being killed, and what's the cry going to be? GET RID! We've seen the same call re cows with calves that farmers should be legally banned from keeping them in fields crossed by footpaths.

 

The wild boar isn't even over pretty or cuddly in the public imagination, so loses out to Brock and Bambi in this regard.

 

But even with Bambi, reason number two kicks in - collisions with vehicles. The other great right of most citizens in their view being to drive down any public highway at whatever the mandated speed limit is + 10 mph (+20 mph if a local and knowing where any speed cameras are located) at any time of the day or night, in fact especially in the middle of the night when there's bugger-all else on the road and the coppers are safely tucked up in bed. The huge recent increase in RTAs involving wild deer is what's driving the demands for a cull, not whether they do economic damage to farmland, forestry, and crops. (Well, in England and wales anyway. In Scotland, it seems that red deer are a lower priority than regrowing the Great Forest of Caledonia allied to increasing Capercaillie numbedrs.) So we now have a battle here between tree-hugging Bambi lovers and the authorities who deal with the consequences - but the poor old boar hasn't even got that protection.

[Dustyman]

+ 1 Laurie much more eloquently put than I .

[maxxis35]

We should be glad that Boar numbers are on the up, after all they are an indigenous animal to this land.

[sonic]

We already live in a well managed world. The fact we have the diversity of wildlife we have is a direct consequence of farming game management and to a lesser extent wildlife reserves.

Hit one at seventy on the M6 and then tell us you want them left alone.

Laurie well said I agree with the points you made.

 

Proper management of wild boar is the only thing to do. LACS tried the leave nature to do it with deer on their reserve didn't work out so well.

I like wildlife I grew up in the countryside farming shooting etc.I know exactly what goes into creating the habitat and looking after it. I personally and many others have and continue to put in hours of work at my own cost to benefit wildlife. I admit it gives me some direct benefit. But many others besides get to enjoy the countryside. You cannot leave Boar, Deer or many other animals alone. In many cases when the population out grows the food source the end result is starvation and disease. Or over predation and extinction. Some species only survive because we help them do so.

If you don't believe deer management is effective then BDS have plenty of scientific data to show it is. the same will apply to Wild Boar they deserve to have a minimum calibre a close season may be impractical but guidelines along the lines of what to shoot and when could be set.

[matchking]

I shoot quite a few boar around the forest of dean area. There is a definate need to manage them through shooting, The damage that these boar cause has to be seen. The key word here is management. They need to be seen as an asset to our countryside the same as deer. They are substainable resource that managed correctly can live along side man with little conflict. There needs to seasons on boar also more education on the species. They are fabulous creature that needs to be looked after but to leave them unchecked will not benifit boar, If left unchecked numbers will increase to unaceptable levels and so will the damage resulting i an outcry to cull all the boar, The commissions decision to cull the boar may not be popular but is sadly needed. As i said managed correctly they are an assit to the the british countryside, Left unchecked they will be treated like vermin, Much same as our deer are now treated as a pain in the arse rather than something that as a country we should be proud of. The fact that we lucky enough to have six species in the u.k plus boar. I cull around 10-20 boar a year plus around 60-100 deer a year are numbers increasing? Personaly i don't think so. The loss of habitat and disturbance in the countryside i think leads to more deer maybe being seen.

[matchking]

I shoot quite a few boar around the forest of dean area. There is a definate need to manage them through shooting, The damage that these boar cause has to be seen. The key word here is management. They need to be seen as an asset to our countryside the same as deer. They are substainable resource that managed correctly can live along side man with little conflict. There needs to seasons on boar also more education on the species. They are fabulous creature that needs to be looked after but to leave them unchecked will not benifit boar, If left unchecked numbers will increase to unaceptable levels and so will the damage resulting i an outcry to cull all the boar, The commissions decision to cull the boar may not be popular but is sadly needed. As i said managed correctlythey are an assit to the the british countryside, Left unchecked they will be treated like vermin, Much same as our deer are now treated as a pain in the arse rather than something that as a country we should be proud of. The fact that we lucky enough to have six species in the u.k plus boar. I cull around 10-20 boar a year plus around 60-100 deer a year are numbers increasing? Personaly i don't think so. The loss of habitat and disturbance in the countryside i think leads to more deer maybe being seen.

[Missed]

I have no problem with a cull if numbers get beyond what the available land can support without serious consequences. What I have a major issue with is the way much of what is deemed to be environmental protection is politicised. This in turn leads to a system of management and research which appears to be constantly looking over its shoulder to see what the environmental lobby want.

 

There are other species within the UK that could do with a degree of culling; the gray seal and the bonxie ( great skua) both spring to mind. Now, neither are highly visible to the majority of the UK population but both are increasing in numbers and in the case of the bonxie, shifting South at an alarming rate. Due to the fact that both are not highly visible to the majority and the fact that neither look 'bad' they will be left to continue unchecked. In the case of the gray seal, numbers in the West of Scotland are so high that the National rookery is beginning to show some signs of stress. This in turn leaves them vulnerable to diseases such as canine distemper. Numbers of 'popular' seafowl such as puffin are already being hit hard this year by bonxies but again as its not obvious nothing will be done and as before, the usual faces will appear on tv and blame fishermen, climate change/global warming (take your pick) and pollution.

 

Unfortunately, environmental strategy is very often not driven by good science but by populist politics and this, as we have already seen in parts of the West of Scotland leads to the decline of the very things that we all want to protect.

[kent]

Sooner rather than later we will see fatalities to humans in car accidents caused by Deer and to a lesser extent, Boar. The numbers are that out of control.

 

They have not been a naturalised species in the UK since the middle ages, and then their numbers were checked by hunting.

 

Bring back Hunting .

 

Especially with a pig sticker.............

We have human fatalities now from RTAs with deer. The numbers are actually quite high of serious accidents involving deer

 

Boar are being kept on as a sporting asset for just a few, it would be an easy thing to exterminate them after the storms- In truth I recon many are introduced intentionally to create future and present sporting revenue

[kent]

Sooner rather than later we will see fatalities to humans in car accidents caused by Deer and to a lesser extent, Boar. The numbers are that out of control.

 

They have not been a naturalised species in the UK since the middle ages, and then their numbers were checked by hunting.

 

Bring back Hunting .

 

Especially with a pig sticker.............

We have human fatalities now from RTAs with deer. The numbers are actually quite high of serious accidents involving deer

 

I shoot quite a few boar around the forest of dean area. There is a definate need to manage them through shooting, The damage that these boar cause has to be seen. The key word here is management. They need to be seen as an asset to our countryside the same as deer. They are substainable resource that managed correctly can live along side man with little conflict. There needs to seasons on boar also more education on the species. They are fabulous creature that needs to be looked after but to leave them unchecked will not benifit boar, If left unchecked numbers will increase to unaceptable levels and so will the damage resulting i an outcry to cull all the boar, The commissions decision to cull the boar may not be popular but is sadly needed. As i said managed correctlythey are an assit to the the british countryside, Left unchecked they will be treated like vermin, Much same as our deer are now treated as a pain in the arse rather than something that as a country we should be proud of. The fact that we lucky enough to have six species in the u.k plus boar. I cull around 10-20 boar a year plus around 60-100 deer a year are numbers increasing? Personaly i don't think so. The loss of habitat and disturbance in the countryside i think leads to more deer maybe being seen.

 

 

Boar are being kept on as a sporting asset for just a few, it would be an easy thing to exterminate them soon after the storms - In truth I recon many are introduced intentionally to create future and present sporting revenue. Deer are increasing that's just a fact created by poor management of the animal over its sporting value. 25 yrs ago you hardly saw deer outside of known strongholds even while out lamping now they are prevalent on waste ground and parks etc. even in urban areas. Deer are certainly being transported often to unsuited areas.

[sonic]

One thing that comes to mind reading this is the use and meaning of the word Cull.

 

Some will read mass slaughter.

 

Others a reduction in numbers to a sustainable level.

 

Do the reporters know that by saying cull rather than that numbers need to be reduced. They will provoke outrage from the public who do not know any better?

 

Baldie Deer do cause road deaths one example googled http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049836/Two-foot-muntjac-deer-cause-thousands-crashes-year.html.

 

people forget we live on an island there is only so much room. Personally I'd happily share with the wild boar lets kick a few people out to make room. Or put a cap on children. Share your house so we don't need to build as many.

 

Ok a bit silly but what do you suggest if not management. And that applies to other species (us included).

[Laurie]

 

 

Ok a bit silly but what do you suggest if not management. And that applies to other species (us included).

 

 

Well, that's the elephant in the environmental lobby's room. 7,084,0000,0000 homo sapiens estimated on the planet by USCB as of 12th March 2012, between 7.5 and 10 billion expected by when is it, 2050, only 37 years from now? Assuming rapidly degrading water supplies, ocean fish stocks and soil fertility levels hold up long enough to feed that number, of course.

 

Mind you, Her Majesty's present Government considers building more houses on greenfield sites much more important than helping British agiculture, and the last lot thought it a marvellous idea to increase the population by several millions through immigration rather than relying on the existing population's birth-rate. And these same people wonder why there's a 'disconnect' between them the politicians / leaders and us the led.

[kent]

 

 

Well, that's the elephant in the environmental lobby's room. 7,084,0000,0000 homo sapiens estimated on the planet by USCB as of 12th March 2012, between 7.5 and 10 billion expected by when is it, 2050, only 37 years from now? Assuming rapidly degrading water supplies, ocean fish stocks and soil fertility levels hold up long enough to feed that number, of course.

 

Mind you, Her Majesty's present Government considers building more houses on greenfield sites much more important than helping British agiculture, and the last lot thought it a marvellous idea to increase the population by several millions through immigration rather than relying on the existing population's birth-rate. And these same people wonder why there's a 'disconnect' between them the politicians / leaders and us the led.

Its political correctness, oh and those large corporations that stand to make a shed load of cash out of building all those homes that are lobbying for it to happen. Boar however do not have a place in the UK as the dynamics have developed without them for too long, neither do wolves have a place as many countries are now finding. bears, beavers, sea eagles etc. meanwhile we allow these private (often foreign owned) companies to drain water from the Lake district and Northern reservoirs to supply the already over populated south and allow yet more low grade immigration to drain our NHS and other " all free" things that ourselves and our fathers / grandfathers paid for . Perhaps the recent elections have opened an eye or two?

Don't over worry about world over population mother nature has ways of taking care of that one, all she cannot handle is quick increases in non naturalised creatures (like boar)

[Missed]

Allowed to continue, boar will find their own level; all animals do. However, before that happens there will be conflict regarding the impact they will have on the environment. A case study is what SNH allows to happen on St Kilda with the sheep there, yes it is a small area but it allows the layperson to see quite graphically how populations grow, stress, crash and balance especially with unpredictable meteorological conditions and limited food source.

 

As mentioned, the real elephant in the room is Homo Sapiens and the inability of environmentalists to actually accept that as animals we are also part of the ecosystem. It has been this selective picking that is now being questioned amongst those who study such things. With the possible exception of Antarctica, all so called pristine environments have been influenced by the behaviour of Homo Sapiens, even such 'holy grail' environments such as the Amazon and the Plains of Africa. Just look at the archeological evidence of vast human populations that have only recently been discovered in the Amazon basin!

[gbal]

Allowed to continue, boar will find their own level; all animals do. However, before that happens there will be conflict regarding the impact they will have on the environment. A case study is what SNH allows to happen on St Kilda with the sheep there, yes it is a small area but it allows the layperson to see quite graphically how populations grow, stress, crash and balance especially with unpredictable meteorological conditions and limited food source.

 

As mentioned, the real elephant in the room is Homo Sapiens and the inability of environmentalists to actually accept that as animals we are also part of the ecosystem. It has been this selective picking that is now being questioned amongst those who study such things. With the possible exception of Antarctica, all so called pristine environments have been influenced by the behaviour of Homo Sapiens, even such 'holy grail' environments such as the Amazon and the Plains of Africa. Just look at the archeological evidence of vast human populations that have only recently been discovered in the Amazon basin!

If we take your point,and that of many experts,Homo Sapiens did indeed originate on the savannah plains of Africa,and that makes most of us descended from immigrants.

I had not heard about the' vast human populations ' in the Amazon basin,did they have much impact on the environment,and do we know whatever happened to them?

 

More to the topic,there are populations of wild boar in France,which still manages to be a broadly comparable civilisation to the UK,and I rather doubt that the boar have a political bias.

Georgesbal

[Laurie]

If we take your point,and that of many experts,Homo Sapiens did indeed originate on the savannah plains of Africa,and that makes most of us descended from immigrants.

 

 

 

Yes and we know of several humanoid species in particular the Neanderthal that simply 'disappeared' between then and now, Nobody knows 100% why but the suspicion is that the process was neither concensual or pleasant for the losers. Nowadays we call that 'ethnic cleansing' and 'genocide' and put people on trial at The Hague and give them 20 to 30 year prison terms. So what happened in pre-history is pretty well irrelevant to todays' situation.

 

What several people are saying is that we live in a crowded world with an increasing number of scientists warning we are pushing soil, water and food resources to the point of irretrievable breakdown. If we step over a cliff-edge, such a reducing ocean fish-stock species which still feed a significant percentage of the global population (and not just human remember, there are other animals with the right and need to eat such resources) below sustainable levels, there is simply no return, not within a generation or two at least.

 

The whole deer, boar, rat, fox, grey squirrel, magpie etc population issue is a subset of this. How can they be managed? Should they be? What benefits and disbenefits do their populations bring? How do they impact on human food and resources production, and is that more important than their right to thrive in the wild? Getting answers is incredibly difficult, and I imagine the answers to these various questions and for different species / needs will often contradict each other, but as other posters are saying, the debates are all too often driven by sentimentality, opinions allied to a lack of insight by people with axes to grind, political correctness, and also so far as the actual politicians are concerned, a lack of courage as soon as the going gets rough. (The real-life equivalent of Sir Humphrey's easiest and most effective way of putting government minister Jim Hacker off a policy being to suck his teeth and say he 'admires the minister's courage!')

 

I've no answers and even less expertise, but I do firmly believe we can't suddenly decide it's unethical to stop managing their populations and let them do their own thing in an unnatural countryside environment, one created by man for man over a few thousand years. As an earlier poster said, the LACS no-cull policy on their protect-the-deer-from-the-hunters-reserve was neither successful nor ethical, nor at all pretty. Funny how LACS could do this and suffer nothing more serious than criticism in a few specialist fieldsports magazines and 'right-wing newpapers', but if it was some confused old geezer with a load of scruffy half-starved dogs or cats running around a terraced house, or a smallholder with starving and diseased livestock, the RSPCA would have jumped in, seized, put down, or rehomed the animals and had their owner in the Magistrates Court before you could say 'animal cruelty'.

[Ronin]

Sooner rather than later we will see fatalities to humans in car accidents caused by Deer and to a lesser extent, Boar. The numbers are that out of control.

 

 

 

 

Already several fatalities per year from deer