A different method of barrel cleaning

[325WSM]

There have been various threads lately on methods and chemicals used for bore cleaning and although I have mentioned my method of copper removal no one seems particularly interested but happy to continue using chemicals that may or may not damage the bore of a prized rifle.

 

This weekend has brought an example of the effectiveness of the 'Reverse Plating' method as compared to the use of two widely used chemicals - Hoppes Benchrest and Butches Boreshine

 

A friend telephoned me yesterday morning asking me to offer some assistance with his seeming loss of accuracy in his 22-250. It is a foxing rifle that is used as a tool and he is more than happy with 1" at a 100yds but when he checked zero, having badly wounded a fox the evening before, he found 3" was more the norm with odd fliers.

 

I agreed and so we took it totally to pieces - then reassembled it checking everything twice. He took it out and re-zeroed the scope but returned with the same accuracy problem.

 

My assumption therefore was the problem must be with the barrel since all other aspects such as ammo and scope were either unchanged or doubled checked.

 

He tells me he cleans the barrel approx every 50 shots with either Butches Boreshine or Hoppes Benchrest until the patches come out clean. I checked with him to see exactly what he does and he tells me he does the following. He swabs the barrel with a loose patch soaked in chemical and leaves it 10 - 15 mins or thereabouts. He then 'scrubs' the bore with a PB brush and the same chemical twice per shot fired ie approx 50 times in and out for 50 shots and then washes out with WD40. He patches dry and then patches until clean with the solvent BUT if he needs more than a few patches he repeats the whole process.

 

The rifle had been so cleaned 8 shots before he came to me so even with the zeroing it would only amount to 20 shots since the last copper solvent clean. I cleaned the bore with some Henry Kranks Nitro solvent and then some Forrest Bore Foam leaving the Foam about 15 mins whilst we had a cuppa. I re-patched until clean and all seemed ok. I then set up the Outers Foul Out and used that.

 

After 3 hours it still didnt show clean so my friend took his stock, floorplate, bolt, scope and trigger, went home and left me to it.

 

It took 6 hours for the unit to indicate clean and the rod was coated from top to bottom with copper. From the chamber to approx 6" it was thick deposits as was the area about 4" before the muzzle.

 

I washed out and cleaned the bore as above with Kranks Nitro Solvent. It was Black and took a dozen patches before they started to show more white than black. I used a PB brush and some Hoppes and then I refilled the barrel with new Copper Acetate and with a clean rod started the process again. After about 5 hours the unit again switched off and although the copper deposits covered the rod and were heavier in the same areas they were at least somewhat lighter overall. After cleaning as above I set the unit again and after a further cleaning completely repeated the process before I went to bed. This morning the rod still showed some deposits from the chamber for approx 4" and around a 4" area about 4" before the muzzle.

 

I cleaned as before and reset the unit. After 1/2 hour it showed the barrel to be clean and the rod showed only marginal copper. I cleaned the rod and tried again and after a further 5 mins it showed clean. There was virtually no copper showing on the rod.

 

I have never had a barrel that showed such copper deposits or took so long to clean. What really is most surprising is that despite the regular use of other chemicals until the bore showed clean the amount of copper was obviously still building up until ultimately the amount removed by the Outers Foul Out would nearly have made a new copper jacket.

 

My friend called about 11.30 today and we re-assembled the rifle, popped out and rechecked zero. The rifle zeroed 5 shots at 3/4”.

 

I like Hoppes Benchrest and find that unless the barrel is badly fouled it does a pretty good job and so suggested this cleaner to my friend. He had already bought some Butches and feels this gives an easier clean hence the use of these chemicals. For Nitro Solvent I prefer to use Gunslick nitro solvent in aerosol cans but this is no longer available in the Uk so I keep what I have for my own 'best rifle' use and now buy Henry Kranks solvent which is absolutely excellent but is liquid in tin cans not spray in aerosol cans.

 

One aspect of cleaning not normally mentioned but very evident when using a tool such as the Outers is the layer build up in a barrel that needs to be cleaned by separate processes. The bore is contaminated by the copper followed by the powder and then copper and so on. The removal of the copper is often restricted by the next layer of powder and so it is good practice to clean for copper then with a pure nitro solvent and then again for copper. The Outers machine highlights this clearly as it removes the copper and loosens the black deposits that need cleaning out between copper removal sessions. When the machine finishes a cycle the first patches are 100% black and until those deposits are remove the next layer of copper tends to be more difficult to remove.

 

I trust the above offers an insight into how I prefer to remove a copper build up.

[Redfox]

I have often thought about the outers foul out system and have used the same process for other purposes, the only reservation that I have is that electro deposition is not confined to the copper alone.

depending to some extent on the electrolyte used it can and will etch the barrel itself too, albeit more a dulling of the surface than major metal removal.

I have said so many times recently on here, you can not expect to remove significant copper deposits with a five or ten minute soak, the action of copper removing solvents is just not that quick.

For fifty shots I would clean thoroughly with a nitro/ copper remover then wet patch with hoppes benchrest or shooters choice or Forest bore foam and leave overnight turning rifle over and/ or repatching before going to bed, it will then remove all but the worst of fouling and might need leaving for a couple of hours with fresh patching. Anything that will remove significant copper fouling in ten to fifteen minutes will also damage the barrel as it has to be extremely aggresive to even have a chance of doing anything.

There is no need to do two push throughs for every shot either, thats just wearing out the barrel and adding bronze to the mix, far better to do about half a dozen and repeat after a few hours to disturb the carbon and any free flakes of copper, but I rarely bother, just wet patch with fresh solution. In short I am not surprised his barrrel was badly fouled and that you had to do so much work on it, but it proves the foul out does work.

Redfox

[Ronin]

Very interesting read 325WSM, thanks.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but I have never heard of the Outers system, could you advise of the componants / method of use?

 

It certainly seems to be a different approach to a frustrating problem in some barrels.

 

With regards to Redfox's comments about possible removal of barrel material (microscopic that is) does the chemicals used in the Outers system prevent this from happening?

[Redfox]

If you know how electroplating works, this is the revesrse in that instead of plating the bore with copper from a copper anode, you are unplating/ stripping it by reversing the process, the barrel is the anode and the rod in the kit is the cathode.

The chemical in the solution is designed to make it conductive so that the copper ions will flow to the stainless rod and be deposited there and as it is a poor plating surface for the copper they are easy to take off, it is a good idea and I'm surprised others have not jumped on the band wagon ( it is public domain info of course ) just the tinkering with wires and power supply may put some off.

Redfox

[Ronin]

Is the plating process limited to copper removal, or does it take metal from the barrel as well - I am surmising this is dependant on the elctrolyte (conductive solution) used??

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

very interesting post 325

 

I have heard of copper problems like described and although patch's with regular cleaner would come out clean the electro kit would still fetch out copper

 

the problem for the particular fire arm in question was that it had fire cracks and when cleaned with solvent and patches the copper would get forced down into the cracks instead of pushed out and so layer after layer would get pushed down in to the cracks

[Redfox]

Mostly to do with the electrolyte, also current density and time, the copper will transfer long before the steel.

Redfox

[325WSM]

Something worth a read relating to normal copper removal products and at the end saying ..................

 

http://www.frfrogspad.com/cleaners.htm

 

The process is basically as stated but the chemicals you can use offer two different processes. One is as per my post above for copper removal and the other is for Lead fouling removal. This is ideal for 22 rifles or those classic/replica rifles that use cast bullets. The process is the same for both types of fouling and the same machine is used.

 

You use a Copper acetate /Ammonium Acetate for copper removal and a Lead Acetate /Ammonium Acetate for Lead removal. Neither will on their own affect steel – Chrom or Stainless. In fact in the UK both chemicals can be purchased in 5 gal tins rather than as in the US in 5 gal poly containers.

 

However some care is needed when used in some rifles for the first time but really only those old / collector's weapons or rifles that have been grossly neglected. The machine will remove rust in the bore and this can be detected by a yellowing of the chemical fluid so initially if used in a weapon with possible rust in the bore an inspection and fluids change is recommended at approx 15mins. The worst possible problem that can occur is barrel pitting if the machine is left on for very long periods and there is rust in the bore such as there may be with an Antique weapon. As I understand it the rust acts as a catalyst and starts to transfer steel from the rusty areas. On this basis a change of fluid after initial rust removal – which is extremely quick – is essential on any weapon with possible bore rust. As stated this would never be a problem for those who use this forum – they just don't have rusty bores in their rifles.

 

The chemicals themselves are harmless to steel whether or not there the unit is switched on.

 

It is for this reason I find the unit so useful. It cleans 100% without the need to add possible harmful chemicals to the process and can if so required be used to clean-back to a controllable pre fouled level to reduce the number of fouling shots needed to stabilise bullet accuracy. (specifically important for lead fouling. This is especially important for relatively rough bores which otherwise give good accuracy.

 

The Foul-Out System helps normal bore solvents do their job of removing powder and lubricant fouling. With the metal removed from over and between the particles of powder fouling normal bore solvents have a relatively easy time flushing out non metallic foulants.

[325WSM]

Something I didnt mention that I found to be another useful aspect of this process is being able to take back a barrel in time.

 

Years ago, I bought a year old 25-06 that was badly fouled and on the admission of the owner had never been cleaned. He couldnt hit a Barn Door with it and so I bought it very cheaply. It was bought for the action rather than as a full rifle but out of interest I 'returned' the barrel to box condition by removing all the fouling with my Outers Foul Out and then followed my normal 'Break in' procedure for a new barrel and found that it was as good a shooter as any factory offering I have ever had despite being a 5" grouper when the vendor sold it to me.

[Redfox]

I seem to remember that the fear of ammonium based cleaners was partly the promotion of rust ( maybe) and micro cracking of the surface due to exposure to a strong alkaline.

I have never seen any evidence of the micro cracking , but rust if left for an extended period is a possibility as it is a water base dilution of pure ammonium, like 10% and the surface is presumably degreased, but all the makes of really strong ammonia based cleaners say short periods up to 15 - 20 mins anyway.

Chemical cracking is a reality in some cases, some years ago a certian grade of moly in grease was found to promote cracking a and failure of some stainless fasteners under load and is no longer used.

We are into a whole field of chemistry and metalurgy here.

Redfox

PS found this on a different part of the site WSM quoted, http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm

[Andrew]

I have used an electric bore cleaner for years. It uses 1.5V current and will remove all copper in about 20 minutes. The solution is mild household ammonia used for cleaning glass and available at grocery stores. I don't use it often, in fact, I use it for removal of copper before I shoot lead bullets through a rifle. Since I use 80% of my rifles as cast bullet shooters, I usually use the unit just once per weapon. Still, I have used it on my copper slinging rifles with no ill effects in 25 years of usage.

 

I think frequent cleaning your rifle is detrimental to the barrel and ultimately, to consistent accuracy. Frankly, I don't worry about copper fouling until it becomes problematic. I recently decided to clean my CZ Hornet because after 800+ rounds I just felt it probably needed a good copper cleansing; even though the accuracy was still right where is always was. Much to my surprise, a single patch of Sweets 7.62 took care of it and then there was only the faintest trace of blue. I think I'm good for another 800 shots. ~Andrew

[Redfox]

Tried all over to get the mk3 model of the foul out here but nobody seems to import it.

redfox

[Guest varmartin]

Sinclair used to do them

[SteveW]

Tried all over to get the mk3 model of the foul out here but nobody seems to import it.

redfox

 

Hi Redfox

I've also been trying to source one as well, 325WSM told me to try GMK, so i spoke to The Sportsman @ Exeter, but the bloke i spoke to didn't have a clue Was goin to speak to them direct but never got around t it, but i did e-mail Midway UK almost 2 weeks ago ( even sent it twice ),

but to date have not heard a dicky bird, great customer servive, only tried them as they stock the components but not the machice and Midway USA sell the complete system. If you get have any joy plese PM me

Maybe Andrew could shed some light on the subject or advise us of an alternative

Cheers Steve

[325WSM]

GMK

http://www.gmk.co.uk/

are the UK importers for Outers products - if they don't import it (or wont) speak to Outers direct and try twisting their arm to send some over.

 

If you still cant get them and are willing to buy from the US email me (mry716@hotmail.com) and I will put you in touch with a friend who owns a gun-shop in the US who I am sure will supply you (esp if you can all join forces to save him various UK shipping consignments)

 

For info only

 

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/N...p;t=1&i=593

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/N...p;t=1&i=602

[SteveW]

GMK

http://www.gmk.co.uk/

are the UK importers for Outers products - if they don't import it (or wont) speak to Outers direct and try twisting their arm to send some over.

 

If you still cant get them and are willing to buy from the US email me (mry716@hotmail.com) and I will put you in touch with a friend who owns a gun-shop in the US who I am sure will supply you (esp if you can all join forces to save him various UK shipping consignments)

 

For info only

 

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/N...p;t=1&i=593

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/N...p;t=1&i=602

Cheers 325 WSM,

Will try GMK now, Many thanks.

Steve

[Redfox]

Local dealer tried GMK, they dont import it. I could order from Brownells ( dont care about the 110v have trannys) but they cant ship with the chemicals in the kit ( dont really care about the either as they are available from Midway uk. I too emailed them twice and said dont care if 110V but no reply from them, crap service seems to be their forte from my experience and a dollars+ for pounds mentality too.

Redfox

[325WSM]

They may not import it BUT they are the official importers for Outers CCI RCBS etc and as such have obligations.

 

Talk to Outers and ask that they arrange shipment to GMK on your behalf.

 

As I say if you get stuck email me as generally the larger companies such as Brownels etc need an export licence for anything over $100 and again some chemicals are not shippable via their carriers.

[Redfox]

Thanks for that will try as you suggest, the outers to gmk first , then if no joy we can explore the other way.

regards

Redfox

[SteveW]

Thanks for that will try as you suggest, the outers to gmk first , then if no joy we can explore the other way.

regards

Redfox

Hi Redfox,

Please keep me posted on how you get on, if you need i can also contact them as well to add more credance to show how much interest there is in them in the UK.

Cheers Steve