savage .17 hornet

[triggersqueezer]

i'm trying to find a load for this at the moment using 1680 on many recomendations.i keep getting flyers that open the groups and whilst 4 shots are .75" the flyers open it to much more.i have done the primer pockets flash holes etc ,the barrel is floated ok tried two scopes to iron out the usual suspects.

i have noticed the barrel has no visable crown

why would this be?i want to take it to dave at valkyrie to shorten it and have it re crowned but would rather find a pet load first to make sure its a keeper.any thoughts? from my research .50 is a good group with these rifles.

[247sniper]

What do u mean it has no crow, I can see one on the photos ?

[kip270]

Take it to Dave and have shortened properly, as you say there is no crown.

[pork chop]

What do u mean it has no crow, I can see one on the photos ?

i think he means theres no distink chamfer to the bore like this one has

 

[triggersqueezer]

What do u mean it has no crow, I can see one on the photos ?

i thought the crown was in the bore not the lip round the edge of the barrel?please educate me

[triggersqueezer]

i think he means theres no distink chamfer to the bore like this one has

crown.jpg

spot on thank you

[sonic]

I could be wrong but that looks like a 11 degree recessed crown.this

one thing you could do is clean the end of the barrel then without the mod fire one round look at the end of the barrel you should have a nice even pattern of powder from the rifling. this is gives an idea if one part has more powder crown may be damaged or out of true. the bottom pic shows some sign but not clear enough to say

 

Have you tried with and without mod?

did you get it with a mod or put on your own?

have you checked the free float for muck etc?

all the screws tight?

If you have no joy getting it checked for true threading and square crown and recut if necessary would be my next job.

[triggersqueezer]

cheers sonic

i have been fighting it all day,i have had some ok 3 shot groups so i have made 5 more and the group is completly different leading me to believe the initial three were just the way they fell not an indicator of group.i have tried 25 and 20 v max with two recomended powders and i've seen nothing that resembles consistant sub " groups.i have not tried it without the mod yet.i think the hmr has a definate edge so far.i must have tried at least 25 different loads and would have expected a half inch group at least since i'm not worried about fps.

[baldie]

Thats a 90 degree target crown Mike. A good crown on a specialist rifle, not one that should be put on a production gun as its very susceptible to damage by a muppet with a brush. They need maintaining, and regular recutting to stay on song.

 

That video shows how NOT to crown a rifle.

 

Any facing/crowning work should always be cut from the bore centre outwards, not inwards. Emery cloth has no place anywhere near a freshly cut crown either.

 

Call in with it, i,ll give it a borescoping first, and see if there is anything glaringly obvious.

[Danpd]

Thats a 90 degree target crown Mike. A good crown on a specialist rifle, not one that should be put on a production gun as its very susceptible to damage by a muppet with a brush. They need maintaining, and regular recutting to stay on song.

 

That video shows how NOT to crown a rifle.

 

Any facing/crowning work should always be cut from the bore centre outwards, not inwards. Emery cloth has no place anywhere near a freshly cut crown either.

 

Call in with it, i,ll give it a borescoping first, and see if there is anything glaringly obvious.

I beg to differ Dave, if the tool used is sharp and of the correct geometry it doesn't matter which way you cut a crown. I've examined both under a high powered microscope and there is no difference. BTW the video is from the US company Gunwerks, they just placed an order for 1500 Stiller actions so they must be doing something right? But I will agree on the emery cloth.

[triggersqueezer]

Thats a 90 degree target crown Mike. A good crown on a specialist rifle, not one that should be put on a production gun as its very susceptible to damage by a muppet with a brush. They need maintaining, and regular recutting to stay on song.

 

That video shows how NOT to crown a rifle.

 

Any facing/crowning work should always be cut from the bore centre outwards, not inwards. Emery cloth has no place anywhere near a freshly cut crown either.

 

Call in with it, i,ll give it a borescoping first, and see if there is anything glaringly obvious.

cheers dave

a big help as allways,i'll bell you tomorrow or tues and see when you can fit me in.

[baldie]

I beg to differ Dave, if the tool used is sharp and of the correct geometry it doesn't matter which way you cut a crown. I've examined both under a high powered microscope and there is no difference. BTW the video is from the US company Gunwerks, they just placed an order for 1500 Stiller actions so they must be doing something right? But I will agree on the emery cloth.

 

On a cnc machine I would agree Paddy, not that i,ve any practical experience of one.

 

I wouldn,t cut a crown inwardly on a manual lathe though, regardless of the tooling. I dont think the tolerances are there to guarantee no burrs. Its just as easy to machine it outwards and know its right.

[sonic]

I only put that on as it was the first one that came up on YouTube. Not as the best or only way to do it.

Although I agree its better to cut outward you don't get a burr at the start of a cut.

I would take Baldie up on his offer before wasting anymore powder. At least you'll know if the rifles ok. If it is you narrow it down to you or the load.

[sonic]

just thought when I read review of the .17 hornet was being rimmed it head spaces off the rim rather than the shoulder have you sorted your brass by rim thickness. its another variable and not one you mentioned.

[triggersqueezer]

no sonic i have not ,would that really cause flyers to that degree so consistantly?i have just been loading as normal its not a target round and i could not see the point in weight sorting or any fine tuning untill i get a half decent group.if it makes that kind of difference your teaching me something.

[sonic]

TBO I don't know its not something i've loaded for just trying to minimise variables. lets look at it from a different point of view.

And take something I do load .243

I got a load of not fired in my gun brass of various makes but mainly Federal classic. So first I full length size it all. trim then prime load and then test for group.

So now we have ex no of cases fire formed to my chamber I now neck size check length etc and load with the best load or play with something in between two good loads. By fire forming you get one less variable the each case sits in the same place as the next one. after a couple of reloads I anneal then set the shoulder back with my full length dies set up not to push back to factory just enough to bump it. the point I'm making is each thing is done to try be consistent but not to the point of weighting each case or sorting by water capacity.

When you pull the trigger the firing pin pushes the case forward till it hits the front of the chamber then as the powder burns pressure pushes it back against the bolt stretches to fit the chamber and once the bullet leaves the barrel springs back but slightly.

rimmed cases headspace off the rim so the rim rather than the shoulder stops forward movement so the nearer the are to being the same the better.

What I hope I'm doing is giving you things to check that you may not know or maybe if your like me missed thinking about something else.

[sonic]

try googling 22 hornet reloading (things you do when you can't sleep) primers seem to come up a few times some suggest pistol primers. I think that as its a small load the primer has more effect on it. I don't have 17 but have 22 hornet to hand which shows 0.79cc case capacity .243 is 3.42cc that 4.3 times bigger the same primer has less effect. is a benchrest primer worth trying.

how do you weigh your powder. under and trickle to weight or powder measure. Do you vary load by 0.1gn or by percentage.

some tell you to go up by x weight but then you don't get a smooth increase it jumps

lets take a load for the 22 I've got a 45gn bullet over 12 to 13gn of lil gun so load 12, 12.1 12.2 12.3 etc

now start again and add 1% each time, 12, 12.12, 12.24, 12.36, or maybe 1/2%, since its such a small load 12, 12.06, 12.12, 12.18, it may be that the sweet spot is between the steps you have tried.

well I hope you find one that works I like the idea of 17 hornet for crows, foxes where the .243's to big but would like to know it can deliver. I've a slot for a 17HMR but I would prefer something I can reload.

[triggersqueezer]

thanks again sonic i'll sure keep you posted.having loaded for other rifles i find that you shoot a group lets say .50 ,the next time i try that same group i would expect .50 or .60 even but this seems to shoot a group of say 4 in .70 so i re shoot and get 5 i 1.70 for no reason at all.my gut instinct is the rifle is not inherently accurate so i'll let dave have a nose.hopefully he will spot something .then i believe action torque screws or bedding.if none of that works i'm thinking a large lump hammer and beat it to death.this won't help groups but may help me.

i work the brass flash holes pockets etc then very carefully trickle a load.i have gone up in .2 increments and back down using different powder and bullets.tried different primers etc.the reason i went up in .2 is just looking for a place to start but each time i find something it won't repeat it.i would then plan to fine tune after.it keeps putting 4 shots together with a flyer around 12 grains.the flyer can be on any shot first or last.

keep you posted pal but please don't loose sleep over it

[sonic]

Don't worry all that math's put me to sleep nicely (seem to have abit of insomnia lately sorting through some of the c rap for the good bits).

I agree you need Dave to have a look. At least you'll know if it's fouled or anything else. Are there cleaning issues like some.17s?

most of what I know about .17 hornet comes from shooting times etc.

[Andrew]

On a cnc machine I would agree Paddy, not that i,ve any practical experience of one.

 

I wouldn,t cut a crown inwardly on a manual lathe though, regardless of the tooling. I dont think the tolerances are there to guarantee no burrs. Its just as easy to machine it outwards and know its right.

 

I'm with you. Crowning is never done inward. Always from the bore outwards, and should never require emery polish. The first time I heared this was from my gunsmith Uncle when I was about 10 years old. Gunsmithing school 15 years later. ~Andrew

[triggersqueezer]

mmm barrel fouling could have had a part to play. i gave it the mother of all scrubs last night then shot these nice 2 groups. only problem was it was the same poa.the separate flyer three shot group opened up the group to over an " again but the groups were tight enough for a light barrel savage if only i could stop the flyers.going to see dave asap.

[Hatzi]

Will yours single feed or are you perhaps breaking position to reload the mag? Mine wont single feed and if you read this months targetshooter mag it illustrates also the rough journey each round has towards the chamber as it navigates the circumferential reate in the chamber entrance for the the cartridge's rim to sit in.

 

The fact you have uniformed the primer pockets already is good as the factory brass from hornady has terribly inconsistent ones, primer seating is terrible until they are done. Otherwise mine has been fairly forgiving to reload for contrary to my initial suspicion, i love how quiet it is but the drawback is the tiny cases are still a fiddly little buggers and are dwarfed by even my 222 ones. The certainly isnt much to hold onto when you are prepping the primer pockets!

[sonic]

just wondering you say you got good 3 shot group then it opened up, are the fliers on any shot in the 5 shot string or always 4th or 5th round.

I mentioned headspace and the rim found some info on using the shoulder to headspace by setting your FL dies to bump the shoulder as opposed to FL sizing. You may do this already on other loads.

some of the testers are claiming .25" with i think 10.2 of lil gun and 20 vmax. another a one hole ten shot group he said he'd done it I think you'd call it benchrest style only touching the trigger.

[triggersqueezer]

the flyers seem to come when they feel like it no particular order,i'll be honest i don't get the shoulder bump with a full length die thing.before the shoulder is touched the case is sized up the die?if i could syop the flyers on a 1p is good enough for me and its as good as i can shoot with with my 14x scope if i'm honest.i have been steared away from lil gun yet others love it (marmite)its very unforgiving with preasure i'm told.i'll see what dave has to say today then try lil gun,glue ,nails, hammer.

[sonic]

I don't know about lil gun and pressure from what I've read elsewhere and my Lee book for 22 is that lil gun let them get more for less pressure. for a 40gn lil gun @ 2826fps 28400 cup H110 @ 2795fps 41800 cup.

There seems to be as much argument about primers some saying pistol/magnum pistol, others not but if the gun gets the ok from Dave. It maybe worth trying the load that gives you that group with other primers, if you ask I'll bet the guys on here could come up with 10 no more than twenty of various brands for you to test.

I searched Hornet on here and found some interesting reading on primers and ES.