ricky5042 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Hi all i have a howa 1500 varmint in .223, can i use surplus military 5.56 ammo in it? Thanks Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamp Donkey Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Officially, saami says no. Personally, if it has a fast enough twist (1-12 too slow) and you get no pressure signs, flat primers, heavy bolt lift etc, then I'd use it. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6mmBR Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Depends on your twist rate. Most mil surp is 62gn Ball and requires at least a 1 in 9 to stabilise it. You may be lucky and find some 55gn mil surp but it is getting rare. Cheers Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbit fingers Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 http://www.humanevents.com/2011/02/15/223-remington-vs-556-nato-what-you-dont-know-could-hurt-you/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricky5042 Posted November 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 Depends on your twist rate. Most mil surp is 62gn Ball and requires at least a 1 in 9 to stabilise it. You may be lucky and find some 55gn mil surp but it is getting rare. Cheers Dave. Hi they are 55gn, im not sure of the twist on my howa 1500 varmint rifle Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Using 62 grain ball is dangerous in a .223 chambered rifle for a variety of reasons. 1. The swp for 5.56 is 62,000 psi. 2. The swp for ,223 rem is 55,000 psi. 3. The leade in 5,56 is longer to accomodate the longer service bullet, therefore stuffing a 5.56 into a shorter leade in the 223 is dangerous , especially as 5.56 is always loaded "hot" to cycle full auto arms reliably. 4. 5.56 brass is thicker , reducing the case capacity. People can and do use milsurp in .223,s . I wouldn,t and i dont chamber any AR15 in .223 for this reason. I use the .223 Wylde chamber which has a longer leade, and is safe to use 5.56 in. Its also usually the reason you see hard extraction problems on the firing line, amongst other causes i would add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Using 62 grain ball is dangerous in a .223 chambered rifle for a variety of reasons. 1. The swp for 5.56 is 62,000 psi. 2. The swp for ,223 rem is 55,000 psi. 3. The leade in 5,56 is longer to accomodate the longer service bullet, therefore stuffing a 5.56 into a shorter leade in the 223 is dangerous , especially as 5.56 is always loaded "hot" to cycle full auto arms reliably. 4. 5.56 brass is thicker , reducing the case capacity. People can and do use milsurp in .223,s . I wouldn,t and i dont chamber any AR15 in .223 for this reason. I use the .223 Wylde chamber which has a longer leade, and is safe to use 5.56 in. Its also usually the reason you see hard extraction problems on the firing line, amongst other causes i would add. I use .223 Rem reamers (unless requested differently) and the majority of shooters I know use and shoot surplus without any issues whatsoever. Did you know that the USNG Trophy Match rifles are chambered in .223 and they all shoot LC M855? Regarding brass, not all 5.56 is thicker. LC for example is sometimes lighter than Winchester and Winchester is renouned for being the lightest brass available. When I build a rifle and they want to shoot surplus through it, I just tell them to go ahead and do it. Never seen an issue Extraction problems are in my opinion down to chamber condition and brass quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Yep, i know you do Mark, but the safe working pressures are there in black and white. I wont sell a gun to anyone i know is going to use milsurp in , chambered in .223. I,m not comfortable with it personally, so i wont put a customer in the same position. There are enough shagwits out there blowing guns up with mad/bad reloading procedures than for me to add to it with this chamber/milsurp etc. Everyone has their own way of things i guess. Doesn,t the beast of Bodmin chamber in .223 wylde ? Are the USNG rifles chambered in .223 or .223 match ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Yep, i know you do Mark, but the safe working pressures are there in black and white. I wont sell a gun to anyone i know is going to use milsurp in , chambered in .223. I,m not comfortable with it personally, so i wont put a customer in the same position. There are enough shagwits out there blowing guns up with mad/bad reloading procedures than for me to add to it with this chamber/milsurp etc. Everyone has their own way of things i guess. Doesn,t the beast of Bodmin chamber in .223 wylde ? Are the USNG rifles chambered in .223 or .223 match ? I think he does, but that alone proves the point as even if he i using a Wylde reamer, I still get people calling be and asking if I can fix the problems with their Speedmaster. Like I say, I believe it's all down to chamber condition and brass quality, and lets be honest here, the only surplus ammo that ever causes issues is RG, and as that's practically unavailable anymore the issue is somewhat moot. RG brass is awful and I believe that once fired it just doesn't contract properly. USNG as well as the AMU use std off the shelf .223 reamers from JGS BTW, when you take a rifle to the proof house, whether you want it proofed in .223 or 5.56.......they use the same ammo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Funnily enough, I,ve just had a customer e-mail to bring a brand new gun back as its light striking.....guess what the ammo is ? Bloody RG ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Hmmm, I wouldn't be sure it's the ammo, of it's an AR (I assume it is) id be looking at the fire control group, specifically if the hammer pin has walked out or snapped (as happens) To the other poster, of you look hard enough you can find good surplus M193 55gn. I just scored 4 cans of Winchester White Box :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricky5042 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Hi guys thanks for the replies i have just measured the 5.56 ammo and it comes in at 57mm and i have 4 rounds which the guy who had the rifle before me re-loaded and they are coming in at 61mm overal lenth not sure of the weight of the heads but they are balistic tip match bullets from what iv been told, just need your thaughts on this please :-) Just checked box and is says 5.56mm ball M193 on one side and lot wcc-82-005 on the other. Thanks Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Hi guys thanks for the replies i have just measured the 5.56 ammo and it comes in at 57mm and i have 4 rounds which the guy who had the rifle before me re-loaded and they are coming in at 61mm overal lenth not sure of the weight of the heads but they are balistic tip match bullets from what iv been told, just need your thaughts on this please :-) Just checked box and is says 5.56mm ball M193 on one side and lot wcc-82-005 on the other. Thanks Rick Heads? What are these "heads" you speak of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricky5042 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 I tried to upload a pic but said was to big :-( They look the same as ballistic tips but instead of plastic tips they are metal tips or is this duff info i have been told?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rarms Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Heads? What are these "heads" you speak of? The head is the front end of the bullet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricky5042 Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Here a pic if the link works http://s267.beta.photobucket.com/user/ricky5042/media/223-556.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Heads? What are these "heads" you speak of? "they are ballistic tip match bullets" seems clear enough,though perhaps not too accurate-might be paint!I don't much care for the misuse of the term 'heads' either,as " bullet" is perfectly clear,but it won't help a newcomer sort out his issues to be so "patronnen-ising" george Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosshair Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I'm interested in this as I've manged to get some surplus ammo for my Steyr Pro Varmint with 1-9 twist. Visually, the cartridges appear identical to my Norma 50 grain Vmax- same bullet seating and everything. After having a quick google, I'm now scared to put them anywhere near it but it is a shame- I really would love to try it but don't want break anything! I'm not sure what bullet weight they are- it doesn't say on the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosshair Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Edit- it says ball so I'm assuming its the 62 grain ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 I'm interested in this as I've manged to get some surplus ammo for my Steyr Pro Varmint with 1-9 twist. Visually, the cartridges appear identical to my Norma 50 grain Vmax- same bullet seating and everything. After having a quick google, I'm now scared to put them anywhere near it but it is a shame- I really would love to try it but don't want break anything! I'm not sure what bullet weight they are- it doesn't say on the box. Does it say anything on the box that might help identify.? It won' t be Norma! Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minkstone Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Hi they are 55gn, im not sure of the twist on my howa 1500 varmint rifle Rick Your Howa is a 12" twist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosshair Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Does it say anything on the box that might help identify.? It won' t be Norma! Gbal Next to a Norma: The box: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Next to a Norma: [img=http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r192/m18wilts/Snapbucket/69889EAF_zps575a1f67.jpg] The box: [img=http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r192/m18wilts/Snapbucket/FAA6693C_zps15d7971e.jpg] Thanks- Others like Dave and Bradders will be able to identify this military ammo. Note the considerable differences in the bullet shapes(if you know about such ogives,fine;if not read up a little on it- it has some bearing on seating depth and engagement with the rifling,and hence on accuracy and pressures,but maybe not as much as whatever powder is in the case,or the case's measurements,or the bullet's quality.)One thing is for sure,it was not loaded with your rifle in mind.Accuracy is usually in line with price- ie very much at the lower end. Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosshair Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 Cheers. My friend had them from back when he had a .223 so not sure how old they are or anything. It would just be nice to practice with them- not overly worried about accuracy as such. As it is I'm definitely erring on the 'not worth the risk' side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted April 23, 2013 Report Share Posted April 23, 2013 OK.Been there.A moment's reflection though.The Howa is likely to capable of at least 1 moa with ammo it likes.Suppose your mil surp ammo shoots 3 or 4 moa.What have you practised-that is positive- and offset that against some growing fear that the rifle can't shoot.After a few bangs,which may tell you about recoil etc,there really is little point in shooting very poor ammo,even if it were safe and free. Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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