40g bullets in a swift

[matchking]

Anybody using 40gr bullets in a .220 ? Is there any advantage in using 40 grainers over say 50/55gr out to 300 yards? I know i can push them faster but does there lower BC mean they don't shoot any flatter?

Thanks Sean

[matchking]

They will shoot marginally flatter but the wind will blow them about a lot more. If your rifle can stabilize the 53 grain VMax I would give them a go, they have a BC of .291 which is a lot better than most 40's which are around the .2 mark. If you play with a ballistic program the extra few hundred feet per second you can get with the 40's will shoot the 40's very marginally flatter.

 

Eg.

 

(I have taken the velocities below from Quickload and the ballistic data from Nightforce Exbal.)

 

If a 220 swift zero'd at 175yds was shooting a 40 grain VMax with a BC of 0.2 at 4400fps in 10mph, 3 oclock cross wind the bulllet at 300yds would drop have dropped 4.2" and moved 9.9" in the wind.

 

If a 220 swift zero'd at 175yds was shooting a 53 grain VMax with a BC of 0.291 at 4000fps in 10mph, 3 oclock cross wind the bulllet at 300yds would drop have dropped 4.3" and moved 7.1" in the wind.

 

If it were me I would use the 53 grain Vmax, the 50 grain + bullet is also Munjac legal.

Thanks. Don't think the 40's are worth the bother. I am shooting either 50gr bergers or 50 gr blitz kings at the moment. I havn't had any problems with them. But as the winter closes in all the dull foxes have been shot and only the wylie old buggers are left and the shots are longer. I was just wondering whether the 40's would be a point and shoot 300 yard option.

Thanks Sean

[Scotch_egg]

In a swift use the powder for the 53gr v max.

[Ronin]

I built a 220 AI a couple years ago, they owner tried 40 grainers - they didnt reach the target..

[22/250 foxer]

Most swifts are 14 twist are they not? Or is that most 22/250's ? If so I dont know if your be able to shoot the 53 vmax as hornady say 12 twist or faster? For 53 vmax.

[22-250jock]

I built a 220 AI a couple years ago, they owner tried 40 grainers - they didnt reach the target..

 

 

forgive the silly question ronin, But why?

 

did they break up due to the twist or velocity?

 

cheers jock

[Alycidon]

forgive the silly question ronin, But why?

 

did they break up due to the twist or velocity?

 

cheers jock

 

 

Most have been there, with the need for speed. But its the wind drift you have to beat not the drops usually.

 

Friend had a 22.250AI, he has now seen the light and rebarrelled to 22BR (mate of ours Ronny), it shoots .2s, he does not miss much at all now.

 

A

[gbal]

forgive the silly question ronin, But why?

 

did they break up due to the twist or velocity?

 

cheers jock

Probably the interaction of both-it's the rotational torque/twist that does it-and bullet integrity/construction,though no one has propelled solid coppers fast enought.Velocity can be reduced easier.Had it in a 17rem with 15 g and 257 Weatherby,going too fast.It probably results in a modest very small bore shotgun effect ( sub 9mm Flobert? ) at about 150 yards from the muzzle;not useable.

 

george

[gbal]

Most have been there, with the need for speed. But its the wind drift you have to beat not the drops usually.

 

Friend had a 22.250AI, he has now seen the light and rebarrelled to 22BR (mate of ours Ronny), it shoots .2s, he does not miss much at all now.

 

A

May well be much maturity here.But it must have been a mediocre 22/250 to be much worse than .5,and as you correctly say,the issue is more drop and drift.A .3 difference (.5 minus .2) won't change that at all,though it might be worth an inch in group-but first shot??-at 300 yards,and a very minor ballistic change won't substitute for accurate drop/drift judgement,though 22BR is more 'shootable' in comfort terms.Not missing though is good,whatever the reason,it's just not significantly better drift/drop per se.

[22/250 foxer]

Most have been there, with the need for speed. But its the wind drift you have to beat not the drops usually.

 

Friend had a 22.250AI, he has now seen the light and rebarrelled to 22BR (mate of ours Ronny), it shoots .2s, he does not miss much at all now.

 

A

 

Surely the 22/250 ai wasn't that inaccurate unless it was on its last legs.

[matchking]

I own a 8 twist .22.250 shooting 75gr amax at 3300 fps but never feel that confident when taking long shots on the lamp with it due to the drop. Hence why i had a swift built, I would like a load to put on charlie and not have to think about hold over out to 300 yards or so. As i said the stupid foxes are all but gone and only the smart ones left and i don't have time to think about distance. I just want to point and shoot. Ronin what did you think of the AI version of the swift? was there much of a velocity gain? I have had a .22.250 AI and it was a good enough round.

Thanks Sean

[gbal]

I own a 8 twist .22.250 shooting 75gr amax at 3300 fps but never feel that confident when taking long shots on the lamp with it due to the drop. Hence why i had a swift built, I would like a load to put on charlie and not have to think about hold over out to 300 yards or so. As i said the stupid foxes are all but gone and only the smart ones left and i don't have time to think about distance. I just want to point and shoot. Ronin what did you think of the AI version of the swift? was there much of a velocity gain? I have had a .22.250 AI and it was a good enough round.

Thanks Sean

[happyhunter]

I own a 8 twist .22.250 shooting 75gr amax at 3300 fps but never feel that confident when taking long shots on the lamp with it due to the drop. Hence why i had a swift built, I would like a load to put on charlie and not have to think about hold over out to 300 yards or so. As i said the stupid foxes are all but gone and only the smart ones left and i don't have time to think about distance. I just want to point and shoot. Ronin what did you think of the AI version of the swift? was there much of a velocity gain? I have had a .22.250 AI and it was a good enough round.

Thanks Sean

 

Could you not work a load up for you existing rifle with a lighter bullet for lamping work? There would be almost no difference between the two calibres with say a 50grn v-max doing 3700-3800 fps.

[gbal]

Sean

As you well know,NOTHING shoots flat,and certainly not to 300 yards.Not much in it for drop between 220swift and 22/250,or a 22/250 AI,though helpful to compare the same bullet weight.Since range judgement will be approximate,perhaps the obvious solution is just to sight in at,say,200 yards.This is a cheap proceedure compared to a new rifle,and is absolutely fine for the dozy close in ones.With the 200 zero,as near as damn it,all these cartridges will have a trajectory like this( 220 swift,or 22/250,55g vmax,mv 3860)):in inches,10mph cross wind

 

100 yards 200 yards 300 yards 400 yards

 

drop +1 0 -5 -16

 

drift +1 4 9 18

 

 

A 36 g barnes VG at 4280 will have 300 drop of 5,and 400 drop of 18, but drift of 15 and 30 inches so worse

 

 

A 250 zero would be very close to a hold on and shoot for elevation,wind drift of course as above.

 

 

Calibre change won't make much,if any, improvement on these data(cf Lazzeroni 6.17/243 85g at 3600fps mv, is 5 and 6 at 300y,14 and 12 at 400y).Shooting on the moon will.

 

george

[matchking]

Sean

As you well know,NOTHING shoots flat,and certainly not to 300 yards.Not much in it for drop between 220swift and 22/250,or a 22/250 AI,though helpful to compare the same bullet weight.Since range judgement will be approximate,perhaps the obvious solution is just to sight in at,say,200 yards.This is a cheap proceedure compared to a new rifle,and is absolutely fine for the dozy close in ones.With the 200 zero,as near as damn it,all these cartridges will have a trajectory like this( 220 swift,or 22/250,55g vmax,mv 3860)):in inches,10mph cross wind

 

100 yards 200 yards 300 yards 400 yards

 

drop +1 0 -5 -16

 

drift +1 4 9 18

 

 

A 36 g barnes VG at 4280 will have 300 drop of 5,and 400 drop of 18, but drift of 15 and 30 inches so worse

 

 

A 250 zero would be very close to a hold on and shoot for elevation,wind drift of course as above.

 

 

Calibre change won't make much,if any, improvement on these data(cf Lazzeroni 6.17/243 85g at 3600fps mv, is 5 and 6 at 300y,14 and 12 at 400y).Shooting on the moon will.

 

george

Thanks for the replies. I already own a swift so no expenese on a new rifle. Nothing shoots lazer beam flat i know but would like something pretty close It would be intresting to see how fast you would have to push say 50gr .22 cal bullet to have no more than 2" above or below the line of sight at 300 yards. maybe a 22/6mm rem AI is the answer

ATB SEAN

[AnthonyR]

Thanks for the replies. I already own a swift so no expenese on a new rifle. Nothing shoots lazer beam flat i know but would like something pretty close It would be intresting to see how fast you would have to push say 50gr .22 cal bullet to have no more than 2" above or below the line of sight at 300 yards. maybe a 22/6mm rem AI is the answer

ATB SEAN

 

 

My 22-250 firing 53gr V-Max at 3870fps when zeroed at 250 is no more than 2" at 300.

[SteveW]

maybe a 22/6mm rem AI is the answer

ATB SEAN

 

How about a 22/284 Sean got the reamer if you need it...........

 

There is a book called "A Varmint Hunters Odyssey", by Steve Hanson ? (I think) where he compares various calibes all shooting 40g'ers (Hornet, K-Hornet, 218 Bee, 221 Fireball, 222, 223, 223 Improved, 22BR, 225 Winchester, 22-250, 220 Swift, 22-250AI, 220 Weatherby Rocket. Well worth a read.

 

I recall reading in Todd Kindlers "Terrific Twenties" about one guy, I think from memory it was Greg Tannel wanting something flatter shooting than his 22/284 and with his criteria he opted for the 20 Tactical shooting 32g bullets, so I reckon there is some merit to trying the the lighter 40's through your Swift out to 300, depending on how windy it gets around your part of the world.

 

If you want a read of "A Varmint Hunters Odeyssey" give me a shout and you can borrow anytime.

 

I love the Swift and would never be without one in the cabinet, I have a 220AI and to be honest I gained little in FPS, but gain through having better accuracy over the factory barrel, and love shooting it.

[matchking]

How about a 22/284 Sean got the reamer if you need it...........

 

There is a book called "A Varmint Hunters Odyssey", by Steve Hanson ? (I think) where he compares various calibes all shooting 40g'ers (Hornet, K-Hornet, 218 Bee, 221 Fireball, 222, 223, 223 Improved, 22BR, 225 Winchester, 22-250, 220 Swift, 22-250AI, 220 Weatherby Rocket. Well worth a read.

 

I recall reading in Todd Kindlers "Terrific Twenties" about one guy, I think from memory it was Greg Tannel wanting something flatter shooting than his 22/284 and with his criteria he opted for the 20 Tactical shooting 32g bullets, so I reckon there is some merit to trying the the lighter 40's through your Swift out to 300, depending on how windy it gets around your part of the world.

 

If you want a read of "A Varmint Hunters Odeyssey" give me a shout and you can borrow anytime.

 

I love the Swift and would never be without one in the cabinet, I have a 220AI and to be honest I gained little in FPS, but gain through having better accuracy over the factory barrel, and love shooting it.

Think i already have that book somewhere, I must try and dig it out. I have been down the 20 cal road and to be honest there not for me. The swift is fantastic calibre used only by true gentlemen in the pursuit of reynard Did you ever build a 22/284?

Cheers Sean

[SteveW]

Did you ever build a 22/284?

Cheers Sean

 

 

Unfortunately it never got further than reamer and dies stage, I use a 20 Vartarg as main night time fox rifle combined with 35g Bergers and a D480/XR5 tube.

 

Good luck trying the 40g'ers, please update us on your results/opinion on them.

[gbal]

How about a 22/284 Sean got the reamer if you need it...........

 

There is a book called "A Varmint Hunters Odyssey", by Steve Hanson ? (I think) where he compares various calibes all shooting 40g'ers (Hornet, K-Hornet, 218 Bee, 221 Fireball, 222, 223, 223 Improved, 22BR, 225 Winchester, 22-250, 220 Swift, 22-250AI, 220 Weatherby Rocket. Well worth a read.

 

I recall reading in Todd Kindlers "Terrific Twenties" about one guy, I think from memory it was Greg Tannel wanting something flatter shooting than his 22/284 and with his criteria he opted for the 20 Tactical shooting 32g bullets, so I reckon there is some merit to trying the the lighter 40's through your Swift out to 300, depending on how windy it gets around your part of the world.

 

If you want a read of "A Varmint Hunters Odeyssey" give me a shout and you can borrow anytime.

 

I love the Swift and would never be without one in the cabinet, I have a 220AI and to be honest I gained little in FPS, but gain through having better accuracy over the factory barrel, and love shooting it.

I can't see any 223 based case-like 20 tactical-outflattening say the 284 based case,which has twice the powder capacity-sometimes of course all the capacity can't be used with very light bullets,which may fragment in flight.And you get wind drift-257s (try Banshee,87 @4200,) reduce wind drift,but don't make much improvement,if any, on drop-as Tony confirms,we pretty well have the answer:a fastish 22/250 (AI) sighted in at 250 yards is about as good as you will get,being plus or minus 2 inches or so all the way out to 300 yards.(no problem in getting any plausible cartridge to be on at 300-but flat(2'') all the way there is another matter!22/250:no fuss,very well developed,factory rifles/ammo off the shelf availability,,moderates well,reasonable barrel life, ,but endlessly tinkerable/reloadable easily.If you are real elitist,you can even call it ''22/250 Varminter''-Gebby deserves to be remembered for this classic.Or Swift,flanged case suits eg Ruger 'farquarson' action,rather classy,if it shoots!

You do need to want that flat trajectory out to 300 rather badly though ,as most of the lesser 224s and 20s and some 17s will do 200-250 quite satisfactorily,and some scopes click up quite easily for occasional longer shots.

george

[gbal]

My 22-250 firing 53gr V-Max at 3870fps when zeroed at 250 is no more than 2" at 300.

Thanks Anthony-real usage fits the laws of physics and ballistics,again !

[gbal]

My 22-250 firing 53gr V-Max at 3870fps when zeroed at 250 is no more than 2" at 300.

 

... and a standard/boring 243 with 58 vmax at 3750 will be very close to that too. 6mm AI versions can smooth out the fractions of an inch,if that makes you more confident//happier/poorer.

 

george

[AnthonyR]

... and a standard/boring 243 with 58 vmax at 3750 will be very close to that too. 6mm AI versions can smooth out the fractions of an inch,if that makes you more confident//happier/poorer.

 

george

 

 

Absolutely it will, however the BC of the 53gr V-Max is 0.29 against 0.25 for the 6mm 58gr V-Max which should make it a little bit better in the wind/drop department.

 

I have debated the ultimate foxing round in my head many many times, I would prefer a rifle with a bit more accuracy than a 22-250 but still can't find a better bullet than the 53gr V-Max until you get to at least a 75gr 6mm bullet, this will need a big big cartridge to push it to high enough velocities to make it flat enough for use out to 300 yards with no drop correction.

 

Also not convinced that my FEO would let me have a 6mm just for vermin/fox.

 

Anybody tried a 22x47?

[gbal]

Absolutely it will, however the BC of the 53gr V-Max is 0.29 against 0.25 for the 6mm 58gr V-Max which should make it a little bit better in the wind/drop department.

 

I have debated the ultimate foxing round in my head many many times, I would prefer a rifle with a bit more accuracy than a 22-250 but still can't find a better bullet than the 53gr V-Max until you get to at least a 75gr 6mm bullet, this will need a big big cartridge to push it to high enough velocities to make it flat enough for use out to 300 yards with no drop correction.

 

Also not convinced that my FEO would let me have a 6mm just for vermin/fox.

 

Anybody tried a 22x47?

 

This BC issue can be overplayed esp at short range-300yards-te difference will be a rather small fraction of an inch,and in any case taken up by the zeroing.The 22/250 can be accurate-it was once rather a popular bench rest round,but that was of course in top smithed rifles. Why not just use the 53g V max,then-the penalties involved in trying to drive a 75g+ bullet fast enough for a 2 inch path to 300 yards are severe indeed. By all means think on,but the 243 route- or try the 22 Middlestead (22-243),or any of the more recent equivalents-,but they won't make much impression against the 58g 243(which is of course a relatively recent option for the 243).OK, FEO issues are another consideration- as is appropriate land-these fast whizzers really have little place,nor are they needed,in many 'close to civilisation' locations.Milbro never made a trajectory free catapult in my young day,and no-one has done it since for a 300 yard rifle,but you can easily get close-sight in at 250 yards-even your 'inaccurate .5 inch 22/250 will be more than good enough-given all the other field conditions- the sub 2 inch wide fox doesn't present very often!An awful lot of foxes have been shot by professional vulpicides who have never heard of BC,often with a 22/250 with exposed lead head bullets.Very few have been missed because of a lack of .04 in BC.

Interesting though it is to explore the idea-eventually some maturity sets inthere is no universal perfect tool--I'm quite looking forward to it! 250 zero meanwhile!Good shooting!

george

[SteveW]

I can't see any 223 based case-like 20 tactical-outflattening say the 284 based case,which has twice the powder capacity

 

George, I totally agree with your thinking, but as I stated in my post "with his criteria" which he listed, he chose the 20 Tac. I never ran the ballistic's.