Barrel Cleaning Methods Pt. II

[Finman]

Hi all, and a happy new year! As a very good friend said to me on the turn of the year: may your trophies be big and your groups small!!

 

I managed to go out for some crows with the .204 yesterday and when the time came to clean it, I thought I'd do the experiment we discussed about in the previous thread on the same subject: My good friend WSM kindly gave me enough MPro7 from his stash and it was sat on my loading bench since before christmas. Since I knew the barrel in this gun (Sako 75, I, Varmint in .204 Ruger; 100 shots breaking in and a total of 513 shots. Load tested in this occasion: 27.5gn Viht N135, Fed 205M, 39gn Bltzkng) and its behaviour, I thought it would be a good opportunity to conduct the following experiment:

 

a) put a carbcleaner soaked patch down the barrel and a dry one after it. This takes out the majority of the crud

b ) Soak the barrel with two patches of MPro7 carbon remover.

c) Let it sit for 5 minutes, pass the phosphor bronze brush through 5 times (since I only had 5 shots)

d) push clean patches through, soaked in KG3 degreaser and solvent remover till I get a clean patch

 

after the barrel was dry I repeated the same steps above (except for (a), but this time with KG1 instead of MPro7

 

The hypothesis here was that, if MPro7 is doing what is supposed to do, the KG1 would only produce clean, or as near as clean, patches, since all the carbon would have been removed (with only 5 shots, this gun does not foul badly).

 

However, my suspicions were proven right: after step (c ) the patch in (d) came out in the same state as the first one after brushing with MPro7. Which to my mind shows that the carbon was not removed adequately by MPro7 (or the gun was so badly fouled that very aggressive cleaning was required anyway; although, I think that this would not be the case). Needles to say, that I shall be using the remainder of the MPro7 for my rimfires and stick to KG1 for the CF rifles.

 

I hope this helps a bit. I shall state again that I receive no earnings from either of these products (MPro7 or KG), nor are my results conclusive.

 

Best wishes

 

Finman

 

PS: sorry for the lack of pictures this time, camera off sync...

[Redfox]

Finman

i have tried to download the poster with how to off the Mpro7 site but its not happening at the moment, to see what they say. I would however say that 5mins is not enough for anything to work properly and the KG might well be benefitting from the pre soak in Mpro!

To remove carbon from most things the advice is from 1 hr to as much as 24 hrs to allow the magic potion time to work, so a fairer test next time would be to give it at least an hour.

I have used hoppes Benchrest 9 for many years and after a couple of shots give it about an hour, but if a good session and particularly if the rifle has been left a day or two ( like when I go away stalking) I always give it 24 hrs after soak and about 10 -12 strokes with bronze brush. Then patch out dry then a couple of wet patches then dry till they come out dry/clean. I have gone back with some of the more agressive cleaners and the forest bore foam a day later and never got any more out of the barrel ( remember if you dry patch aggressively you will get touch of black/grey on the cloth as you are polishing the steel). Had a friend that bought JB compound and rang me up to tell me he had cleaned with it thoroughly about ten time and the patches were still coming out black!

I suggested he get a bit of duraglit, do his brass knocker on front door, wait 5 mins and do it again, then ring me back, he did and said I see what your getting at, Im polishing the back side out of my barrel arent I, dead right was the reply. It didnt fix his worn out barrel but it did clean a bit easier afterwards

Let us know your next set of results please.

Redfox

[Finman]

hi Redfox,

 

thanks for the message. Given that the barrel was dried in between applications I am not sure I could see how the MPro7 would have benefited the application of KG1. Indeed however, what I now need to do is shoot a few rounds and repeat the process but in reverse, i.e. KG1 first and MPro7 after.

 

I cannot however agree that these products need to be left in a barrel for the amount of time you suggest:

 

a) given the amount a patch can hold, I am pretty sure the barrel is dry (from evaporation of the fluid) after 10 minutes

 

b ) the cylindrical shape of the barrel bore will force the fluid to the bottom surface of the barrell (eventually) so any long soak will be effectivelly soak only the bottom surface of the bore (assuming there is any fluid left after 10 or so minutes)

 

c) most of us use an MTM rest (or similar) which has a forward bias, i.e. the muzzle is directed to the floor hence any fluid will be running out of the muzzle (unless of course we plug muzzle and fill the barrel with fluid from the chamber forwards)

 

d) i am sure that, from a marketing point of view, anyone who suggests that their product works best after a 24hour application they will not be very popular. The KG instruction sheet suggests a 5-10 minute application and, if my memory serves me right, advises towards longer soaking periods for heavy fouling. 5 shots (in this instance) in a known quality barrel perhaps does not meet the criteria for 'heavy fouling'.

 

Irrespective of the above, I shall indeed endeavour to repeat the experiment as described above, as I am curious,

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

 

 

PS: I may be mistaken but isn't JB an abrasive? (hence the observations you relate irrelevant to this topic)

[Redfox]

JB is indeed an abrasive as is say Brasso, the anaolgy holds though as even dry cloth fitting tightly in the barrel will have an extremely light abrasive/polishing effect and so discolour.

Because the chemicals most used in the various barrel cleaners are quite rightly mild, they take time to work and 5 mins in this case is really not enough, 10 would be better and to be realistic as I said half to one hour is much more likely to give decent results.

The carbon that you say was present in the barrel after using the Mpro7, would still have some of the cleaner present in it even after dry patching so my comment holds true.

When assesing the effectiveness of things like this it is not normal practice to use first one and then the other, as it proves little because you can't guarantee the impartiality of results. It is normal to do the test on first one item then the other using exactly the same conditions.

I always lay the rifle flat on its side and turn it over one or more times during the chemical activity period ( common sense really) but as for drying out etc, all the cleaners have or should have a surfactant added which encourages wetting of the barrel surface ( as on household cleaners) so it does tend to stay wetted, I sometimes after a larger number of rounds wet patch again part way through, and certainly before going to bed on an overnight soak.

It is really understanding what your trying to acheive, with what materials and taking a reasonable time to do it, miracles are rare and certainly in barrel cleaning.

It is interesting non the less to see what results you get.

Redfox

[Finman]

Redfox,

 

thanks for the speedy response. Indeed, were I to test the effectiveness of each product I would follow a different procedure. The hypothesis here though is whether we are getting 'false negatives', to paraphrase a research term, whilst cleaning our barrels. If the application of a second course reveals carbon that means that the clean patch at the end of the first cycle was a 'false negative' (in that it falsely advises that there is no more carbon in the bore).

 

Assuming that one product is superior than the other, the application of the test product (MPro7) should allow for no more carbon to be left in the bore for KG1 to pick up (hence, the run of the KG1 cycle will produce only clean patches, with perhaps a hint of blacking to allow for the steel polishing effect you describe).

 

In lieu of a bore scope though, all these observations are rather speculative and perhaps done out of curiosity and for a bit of fun, rather than informing the general public and, worse even, advising them on the basis of these findings. It is sad though that the majority of the papers in the UK publications engage in even less thorough testing than this one, yet they do not hesitate to promote products to the rest of us.

 

As for miracles, ever since I lost the hair on my head, I have stopped waiting for one (or believe on the effectiveness of one fluid over the other

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[Redfox]

Yes I agree miracles are far and few between particularly in the hair stakes.

Is there a time recommendation with the Mpro7? I have been unable to download their instruction poster to see what they say and I am waiting for a bottle to test at the moment myself.

I try as does anyone sensible to approach these things with an open mind as to whether they work or not ( I have done quite a lot of research over the years) even when it appears at the beginning that it is not whats claimed, but very often your suspicions are confirmed later.

I will also give it a go when the stuff turns up and keep you posted, until then I have no issues with my Hoppes benchrest no 9 which has served well but is definitely not of the quickest, but doesnt have ammonia to do the copper removal, they do state as well that it is entirely safe to leave in the barrel for long periods.

I as I am sure you also, do not like extended cycles of bronze brush scrubbing, not because of the brush but the cleaning rod which can and does touch the bore even with a good guide.

I have bought and made various ones over the years and even the best ones dont entirely prevent contact when a tight fitting bronze brush is used.

I have also read recently and can believe, that tests have shown that patch jags with a number of rings and or knurling down the length cause damage to the crown when drawn back down the barrel, you can of course take it off each time, but it is very time consuming.

So I got all mine out and a little activity in the lathe quickly removed that possibility , whilst leaving them still working, The only ones that didnt need a mod were the proshot ones from RSD.

All fun and interesting

Regrds

Redfox

[Finman]

Redfox,

 

I hear what you saying... In the past while i bought 2 Dewey rods (20cal) only to find out that the jag was not sitting square on the tip, allowing for a little step to form in the junction between jag and rod, which I am sure would not do my crown any favours...

 

there is a very good discussion on the www.6mmbr.com site, on the matter of using brushes for cleaning barrels, in their video section. Worth seeing:

 

http://www.6mmbr.com/videos.html

 

and the video you want is the one where Mr. Krieger (of Krieger barrels) is explaining what to do and how. I never let the whole brush exit the crown and always unscrew it at the last cycle.

 

I have not received any instruction on the time that MPro7 needs to stay in the barrel. the KG1 is 5 or so minutes and that is what I applied in my regime so far.

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[Redfox]

Thanks for that info. There seem to be two camps on the rods as well! I have Dewey and Pro shot in both plastic and stainless ( good job the wife doesnt go in my gun/ reloading room much, They become very astute when it comes to guessing what you spend on toys ) some say never use the plastic just the bare stainless, others swear by the plastic covered. The way I do is use the plastic for patching out and the bare stainless for wire brushing, on the basis that most dirt, abrasive or otherwise is created with the bronze brush and once you get to patching out there is little chance of dirt embedding in the plastic, but the bore guide is very important in all of this.

Regards

Redfox

[duey]

Hi guys

 

just as a little side step, is there anyone in the midlands stocking the KG range of cleaning products or someone that will reliably post it out as i am getting very near to the end of my supply that i got from the Rifle Store which not longer exists

 

many thanks

 

Ian

[Ronin]

Ive just speed read the thread, so apologies if I am off base:

 

 

I have the M Pro 7 poster i'll try and skan it so it can be read on here:

 

I used the gun cleaner first to remove the carbon as per instructions.

 

when I used a nylon / copper brush and then cleaned out with a patch I got ALOT more powder residue out than before - could this be have been from debris on my brushes?

 

Then used the copper cleaner for the residual jacket material left in the lands.

 

I have never used KG products so I cannot comment on the strengths / weaknesses of this product against M Pro 7.

 

M Pro 7 works for me

[Finman]

Hi Ian,

 

the only place to stock (well, this is a euphemism if I heard one...) in the Uk since the demise of the Rifle Store is a place in N. Ireland, where they do post the stuff out to you (eventually). You can find them in the net under the name 'thegunshop.co.uk', just google it.

 

I came to the end of my tether with this and i contacted KG themselves, who also commented on the unreliability of supply in Europe. They did give me an italian company's e-mail and I shall be trying them next, shall report to the forum as to the outcome of this.

 

Hope you get some joy out of the N.Irish shop, my experience is that the stuff takes too long to come and they have not been stocking KG12 since July...

 

good luck

 

Finman

[duey]

Finman

 

Thats why i asked the question I havn't even been to thegunshop as i've heard nothing but bad reports about there lack of supply on the KG stuff was hoping that someone in the UK was now stocking it

 

hope you have some joy in italy if so I'm sure that a few of us would make it worth while importing some if you can get it at the right price

 

Ian