.223 twist /bullet weight question - foxing and McQueens

[Christian]

Hi,

Quick question for you.

I've recently bought a .223 Rem that I want to use for foxing and McQueens.

It's a standard Tikka T3 varmint that I didn't want to tweak, other than a new stock. But, I have of course started considering a new barrel with a faster twist (it's got a 1:12 at the moment) to shoot bullets that buck the wind better at the longer McQueen range.

Looks like a heavy (80-ish grains) will give a few inches at 300 meters.

Do you think it makes sense to change barrel to shoot heavier bullets for the use/distances I'm looking at?

Your help is very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Christian

[tackb]

I run a Sako 75 with the original 1-8 barrel and it loves 55g BT and 75amax plus the 77 Berger but I've never tried the 80g , so far in actual fact it doesn't shoot anything from 40g-77g badly ?

 

For what you want I think you'll be fine as you are but if you decide to stretch lts legs one day you will be wanting a 1-8 for sure ! I've taken mine to 900yds with the 75g Amax and was amazed how the little thing performed!

 

R

[Scotch_egg]

What you need to do is get out and shoot. See how the current setup performs.

 

 

A re-barrel will cost >£600. Only you know if that will improve your target result. As for for foxing get the 53gr v-max loaded. They appear to get great results.

[oaken]

If 300m is all you want then i would stick with the 1:12 and use 55gr bullets.

A 1:8 barrel makes sense on a .223 if you are chasing the longer ranges (600yds +) with bigger bullets but to replace a perfectly good barrel to get an edge at 300 seems extravagant to me.

Rup

[Christian]

Hi all,

 

Thanks a lot for replying. .

 

It's easy to get carried away re kit (for me anyway), but will take your good advice and stick with the 1:12 barrel for the time being.

 

Thanks a lot

 

Christian

[forbie]

You probably won't get an edge at 300 yds with heavier bullets anyway at those sort of ranges try flat base bullets they are supposed to be more accurate at the shorter ranges (maybe pushing it at 300) according to a high power shooter who has won a few competitons and wrote a few books. I am going to try them myself as I have a 1 in 8 barrel. Mine likes the Sierra 1390 game king but we aren't allowed to shoot targets with it!! Might just do an extended zero session at the range!

[tony]

What you need to do is get out and shoot. See how the current setup performs.

 

 

A re-barrel will cost >£600. Only you know if that will improve your target result. As for for foxing get the 53gr v-max loaded. They appear to get great results.

 

I will second that, get yourself some 53gr V Max, you will find them very good indeed. 25grs of H335, works very well in my .223 Sako 1-12 twist.

As per usual work up to this load.

 

Tony

[Christian]

Hi Forbie and Tony,

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

Have gotten my hands on both V-max and A-max, will keep you posted. Also intrigued by the performance of flat base bullets, but will try the Hornadyones first.

 

Cheers,

Christian

[gbal]

Hi Forbie and Tony,

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

Have gotten my hands on both V-max and A-max, will keep you posted. Also intrigued by the performance of flat base bullets, but will try the Hornadyones first.

 

Cheers,

Christian

Hi C,

All the (custom) 100/200 yard Bench Rest bullets are flat base,and over 95 % are 65-68g 6PPC.The fb is just better,though at 300 yards,its less clear and for longer ranges-by 500 say-the boat tail has taken over.There are new 90g bullets for the 223Rem,but needing something like 1 in 6.5 twist...and generally we have to ceiling out-there is a limit (for 243Rem 115 g has been about it for a while...)but don't rush there!Once it really is your twist rate that is slowing down your progress at longer ranges-more than 300,maybe 500,when it's windy--you might consider it more seriously...sometimes there are reasons not to get the next tool-a 6mm or 6.5 etc

george

[baldie]

It all depends on how seriously you wish to shoot. If you wish to have fun, shoot the barrel you have.

 

If you wish to win, buy a 6.5.

 

I,ve shot countless calibres/guns at mcqueens. The 6.5 is king. Closely followed by a hot 6mm, either the swiss match or 6 x 47 lapua. Forget the Br...the wind kills it.

[dannywayoflife]

Baldie how would the 6.5x55 rate for Mcqueens? ive got one in a T3 flavour and want to load the 140 grain Amax.

[baldie]

Its a 6.5 Danny...it would work fine. The swede is inefficient compared to the smaller 6.5,s however.

[gbal]

Its a 6.5 Danny...it would work fine. The swede is inefficient compared to the smaller 6.5,s however.

...and 'inefficient' equates to 'needs more powder',so more recoil,especially in a light rifle,and any loss of sight picture isn't helpful..

[Christian]

Hi Baldie/gbal,

Thanks for your input.

 

I'll stick with the .223 for now and consider upgrading when funds permit. There is probably a lot I can learn just as fine with a .223 as with a 6.5 given I'm a complete novice now.

Regards,

Christian

[baldie]

The .223 will certainly teach you about wind....which is the real killer in McQueens.

[garyw]

It all depends on how seriously you wish to shoot. If you wish to have fun, shoot the barrel you have.

 

If you wish to win, buy a 6.5.

 

I,ve shot countless calibres/guns at mcqueens. The 6.5 is king. Closely followed by a hot 6mm, either the swiss match or 6 x 47 lapua. Forget the Br...the wind kills it.

as baldie says wind killed my .22br at the last mqueens although i only shot 50vmax @300yds i was struggling with the wind the 200yds was not too bad.

[Christian]

Thanks again. Now that you have started the calibre discussioon I have to ask, how does a .308 stack up against the 6.5s for McQueens?

The .308 is obviously inferior at long range due to the poorer ballistics, grain for grain, but does it mean that much at 300 yards?

[gbal]

Thanks again. Now that you have started the calibre discussioon I have to ask, how does a .308 stack up against the 6.5s for McQueens?

The .308 is obviously inferior at long range due to the poorer ballistics, grain for grain, but does it mean that much at 300 yards?

Ballistically,not a lot!Especially when range is known/sighters etc,and 500yards or so!You don't go 'grain for grain'-its complex-but eg to match the BC,and wind drift(70 inches at 1000,10mph) of 142 Sierra 6.5@2950 fps,the 224 needs 90gr @ 3270,,the 7mm needs 175 gr @2800,and 308 needs 220gr @2650. There are costs of course,in barrel life for the smaller calibres,in appropriate twists of course,and recoil for the larger,but that's what you need for wind drift parity.Bullet choice will be limited at extremes,and only recently available at all for 224.

Don't forget the important 'shootability' factor-it's harder to shoot well with more recoil.You can of course increase rifle weight-this much,if you want recoil equality (of 9ftlb,say): 224,10.3 lb,6mm 13.5lb,7mm 18.5lb,308 23.2lb.

There are good reasons why the 6.5 is popular,when you consider all the above.It doesn't matter which 6.5 etc-given the bullet weight and velocities above,the physics works out.220 grains for 308 is more than most shoot at 1000 yards-maybe one reason the 308 isn't top choice either.7mm is popular,velocity achievable,recoil reasonable,barrel life better than 6.5.

There is choice,but no free lunches- and remember weight rules may also apply in different target disciplines.

I would not rush to change,until the lessons of wind vagaries are indellibly imprinted on your shooting brain.

The 6.5 need not be the baseline/yardstick,but it is a good one,and popular in much shooting.The same principles apply whatever you choose to emulate.

george

[gbal]

Ballistically,not a lot!Especially when range is known/sighters etc,and 500yards or so!You don't go 'grain for grain'-its complex-but eg to match the BC,and wind drift(70 inches at 1000,10mph) of 142 Sierra 6.5@2950 fps,the 224 needs 90gr @ 3270,,the 7mm needs 175 gr @2800,and 308 needs 220gr @2650. There are costs of course,in barrel life for the smaller calibres,in appropriate twists of course,and recoil for the larger,but that's what you need for wind drift parity.Bullet choice will be limited at extremes,and only recently available at all for 224.

Don't forget the important 'shootability' factor-it's harder to shoot well with more recoil.You can of course increase rifle weight-this much,if you want recoil equality (of 9ftlb,say): 224,10.3 lb,6mm 13.5lb,7mm 18.5lb,308 23.2lb.

There are good reasons why the 6.5 is popular,when you consider all the above.It doesn't matter which 6.5 etc-given the bullet weight and velocities above,the physics works out.220 grains for 308 is more than most shoot at 1000 yards-maybe one reason the 308 isn't top choice either.7mm is popular,velocity achievable,recoil reasonable,barrel life better than 6.5.

There is choice,but no free lunches- and remember weight rules may also apply in different target disciplines.

I would not rush to change,until the lessons of wind vagaries are indellibly imprinted on your shooting brain.

The 6.5 need not be the baseline/yardstick,but it is a good one,and popular in much shooting.The same principles apply whatever you choose to emulate.

george

 

orry,we'll need the BCs used too of course:they are advertised averages for 2000-2850 fps

90g 224 .502

115 6mm .585

142 6.5 .565

175 7mm .596

22 308 .627

 

Remember,given these bc's(+/- a couple of 3rd place decimals won't change the comparisons much,even if accurate),the velocities/weights for other calibres are what you need to MATCH the 6.5 142 sierra smk at 2950.If it goes faster,then the rest have to as well,to maintain parity.

 

george

[Christian]

Thanks for the thorough answer George.

As said, I'll stick with the .223 for now and consider things when I get some funds.

Must confess that I keep finding myself looking at the DTA. Not a good sign, I know where that can lead... We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious...

[baldie]

Ask any Diggle mcqueens regular which calibres win when its windy. The 6.5,s and 6mm,s are able to hold the scoring zones. The .308,s get blown off the head. Its such a small target.

 

Real world experience shows ballistics up sometimes. It cant take into account the shooter, the gusting wind , or many other variables the shooter is under.

 

I,ve built many dozens of rifles specifically for mcqueens, and shot it myself for a good few years....always chasing the grail that is the perfect rifle/calibre.

 

Its the 6.5 in one of its guises.

[gbal]

Ask any Diggle mcqueens regular which calibres win when its windy. The 6.5,s and 6mm,s are able to hold the scoring zones. The .308,s get blown off the head. Its such a small target.

 

Real world experience shows ballistics up sometimes. It cant take into account the shooter, the gusting wind , or many other variables the shooter is under.

 

I,ve built many dozens of rifles specifically for mcqueens, and shot it myself for a good few years....always chasing the grail that is the perfect rifle/calibre.

 

Its the 6.5 in one of its guises.

 

Dave,that's pretty much what the ballistics confirm-with precision wrt speeds etc.EG,to get parity with a 6.5 142@2950,16 lb,the 308 calibre generically needs 220g @2650,23.2 lb,so we are not in 308 win territory. .300 win mag is closer,of course.I would get concerned if physics(what is,not what should be) differed from experience,but note I did comment on shootability etc too(and see below).Magnum 308/300s have had some success,off the bench,but have other 'costs'.The 224 requirements certainly will be demanding in a 223rem. The 6.5 is justly a top choice BECAUSE of the attainable ballistics,WITHOUT incurring really serious other costs.My point was to just show how variably difficult it is to match the 6.5,ballistically,AND in the other ways.New bullets etc,eg heavy 224 and 6mm may help,technical developments often do-but that applies to any calibre/bullet/powder etc etc.

I do very much like the idea of experience in actual shooting competitions-and using these public,controlled results sensibly.For example,and subject to detailed correction, the Diggle varmint (9x3 inches?) shoot shows very high%(many head) hits at 100,maybe 75% body hits at 300,and a lot less ,maybe under 50% body hits at 500.This is with pretty good shooting position,at least compared to 'varminting' conditions,a sample of experienced /known very good shooters,with excellent kit,(including top 6.5s)at known distances.This experience/performance has to say something about varminting at (just) 500 yards,and extended ranges.It is entirely consistent with US experience-long hits (700 + yards) are 'rare,even even under near ideal conditions').Of course,having a spotter to walk in the shots is a great help,assuming bullet strike can be seen-a lot easier in arrid zones,compared to grass/heather etc.Bullet trajectory,of course,very much comes into play in field shooting,where ranges are not prescribed.AND there are other considerations(terminal energy;could/should issues).

It is quite clear that (say) a .2 moa rifle is highly desireable to be competitive,but not sufficient( it is of course highly satisfying to,for many that might be even more important.)Some experts have suggested ballistic advantage among good competitors might be (a lot) less than 10%,which sort of leaves quite a bit for improvement elsewhere(judging the vagaries of atmospheric flatulence).

Proper ballistics can tell you which chambering to get built,to top specs,to get top ballistic performance.( or,for many of us,some kind of excuse/reason to get another rifle built.)But as I said,isn't it nice when theory and practice/experience agree? And to understand why,in some accurate detail.Then we need the wind reading equivalent of the laser rangefinder.

george

[Chris]

The people that win mcqueens shoot a 6.5, they may be that good a shot they would have won it with a 30 cal but the ones that are that good turn up with a 6.5.

[gbal]

The people that win mcqueens shoot a 6.5, they may be that good a shot they would have won it with a 30 cal but the ones that are that good turn up with a 6.5.

Thanks ,Chris-I was just giving the ballistic-and shootability-reasons for this,emphasising how difficult it is for some other calibres to get close. The 7mm does ,hence it's rightly popular in F class and 1000 Bemch Rest.As a serious contender,223rem is amusing,but cannot ,and 30 mag is bruising,but can.That's not to say only 6.5/7mm are appropriate: if you like to compete against rifles like yours or your own best scores,or that's what you have,perhaps because they are actually rather good for other purposes,then do so,but you should not expect parity or podium!

george