Factory barrel lapping?

[ejg223]

I’m about to receive a 22-250 howa stainless with a sporter barrel.

What is the general opinion on lapping a factory barrel?

If lapping, what kind of compound is generally used and what grain size?

Would it be necessary to remove the barrel from the receiver?

Would the improvement be worthwhile?

Rgds edi

[Andrew]

There are fire lap kits available from Brownells in the US. Hand lapping is a taxing job and should be avoided unless the rifle just won't shoot. Best shoot it a bit before trying to fix what isn't broken.~Andrew

[Redfox]

Lapping is an expert job and produces a tube which is belled at both ends, this is removed on Match/custom barrels by the chambering and cutting off of the 1-2" at the muzzle end, you cant do this on a factory supplied rifle so the correct answer is no. Fire lapping I would only consider on arifle that was old and shooting badly or a very good rifle that was getting old and shooting very badly but you didnt want to re barrel.

Modern rifles like the Howa are finished to a high standard and with a sensible break in procedure will shoot far better than the guy holding it usually. Just run it in and enjoy a fine rifle.

Redfox

This guy knows more than most and his advice I consider exactly right. http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifl...kStar%20process

[ejg223]

Thanks Andrew,

being a precision mechanic I shudder at the idea of fire lapping.

And you are probably right at first testing before messing.

I don't worry about a bit of work and we are well equipped with

all sorts of lapping outfit at work. Just, I've never done a barrel before.

Further I'm impressed at my lapped barrel on my 308 which cleans so

nice compared to the factory 223 CZ barrel I used to own.

edi

[ejg223]

Lapping is an expert job and produces a tube which is belled at both ends, this is removed on Match/custom barrels by the chambering and cutting off of the 1-2" at the muzzle end, you cant do this on a factory supplied rifle so the correct answer is no. Fire lapping I would only consider on arifle that was old and shooting badly or a very good rifle that was getting old and shooting very badly but you didnt want to re barrel.

Modern rifles like the Howa are finished to a high standard and with a sensible break in procedure will shoot far better than the guy holding it usually. Just run it in and enjoy a fine rifle.

Redfox

This guy knows more than most and his advice I consider exactly right. http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifl...kStar%20process

 

Thanks Redfox,

I just read that article, my intension would have not been to remove all machining traces, but rather

lightly lapp or polish the surface. In other words remove very little and therefore try avoid the belling out.

So only a compromise job.

From our own experience I know a certain roughness is desired on moving surfaces versus a mirror finish.

Question is just what roughness or what lapping compound.

The other thing is the often mentioned belled out ends, technically why? I have never observed that on

flat lapping if pressure is applied evenly.

Another problem is my shooting would not be good enough to actually evaluate if an improvement

is achieved, except if the the job is screwed up.

edi

[Redfox]

I know what you mean Edi, we all have bad days when we need a new rifle , different cal, bullets etc.

The belling comes about by the very action of lapping a round bore from either end, partly the compound cuts more at the start of travel, partly alignment of the lap as it enters and exits the bore and the fact it is a hand not machine guided operation.

For a particularly poor example or one you feel needs a touch up, the JB comound is fine and "non embedding", a few strokes as advised in the instructions will certainly polish it slightly, just dont overdo it, or keep doing it as it will accelerate the normal wear process.

The CZs do seem to have a coarser finish than some of the more expensive makes, which is improving as time goes by, but ultimately now they are in the EU the only way to be cheaper is to leave something out or economise on machinery/ processes.

I would give it a good clean and a "doing" with JB and see how it goes. I can vouch for the fact it will not fix a getting knackered bore!.

Redfox

[Redfox]

Wouldnt put that down my garden hose, never mind a rifle bore. Just because the guy happens to be a good shot doesnt make him an expert engineer or barrel maker. A Completely uncontrolled process powered by propellant (a controlled explosion) is about as accurate as running a polishing mop up and down it with a power drill and abrasive metal polish.

None of the Barrel makers or Rifle makers view it as a vital part of finishing off their work!

A good barrel doesnt need any of this and one that does should be replaced!

Redfox

[col48]

Wouldnt put that down my garden hose, never mind a rifle bore. Just because the guy happens to be a good shot doesnt make him an expert engineer or barrel maker. A Completely uncontrolled process powered by propellant (a controlled explosion) is about as accurate as running a polishing mop up and down it with a power drill and abrasive metal polish.

None of the Barrel makers or Rifle makers view it as a vital part of finishing off their work!

A good barrel doesnt need any of this and one that does should be replaced!

Redfox

 

well they seem to have very good results with it no matter how un scientific you say it is

 

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/finish_0723/

 

http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_finalfinish.html

 

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/notes/0707/

 

 

 

ATB

Colin

[ejg223]

One reason for not using the polish shooting is that while

racing down a barrel a bullet will be loaded on one side to

increase rpm and therefore the polish will be far harder on one side

of the rifling leaving the lee side less polished = uneven surface quality.

My theorie anyway.

I'd trust the feeling of a rod in hand more, if it gets tough or tight I can

back off. Lapping is mostly a slow process, to allow "grit to roll and bed

into the softer material. High temperatures are avoided.

 

The other thing is that American advertising is different to European, we are

more or less forced to only write what is true otherwise a company is before court very

quickly. (if it doesn't do as it says on the tin) In America they can go way over the top.

In Europe the manufacturer must prove that the product does what the brochure promises,

not the customer prove that it doesn't.

 

Redfox, I'll give the barrel a good test before I do something.

This howa is my play around rifle, mess around with stocks and

burn out the barrel before deciding on what calibre and barrel I realy need.

That's why I left the factory barrel on. That barrel would have been just thrown away.

 

rgds

edi

[col48]

One reason for not using the polish shooting is that while

racing down a barrel a bullet will be loaded on one side to

increase rpm and therefore the polish will be far harder on one side

of the rifling leaving the lee side less polished = uneven surface quality.

My theorie anyway.

I'd trust the feeling of a rod in hand more, if it gets tough or tight I can

back off. Lapping is mostly a slow process, to allow "grit to roll and bed

into the softer material. High temperatures are avoided.

 

The other thing is that American advertising is different to European, we are

more or less forced to only write what is true otherwise a company is before court very

quickly. (if it doesn't do as it says on the tin) In America they can go way over the top.

In Europe the manufacturer must prove that the product does what the brochure promises,

not the customer prove that it doesn't.

 

Redfox, I'll give the barrel a good test before I do something.

This howa is my play around rifle, mess around with stocks and

burn out the barrel before deciding on what calibre and barrel I realy need.

That's why I left the factory barrel on. That barrel would have been just thrown away.

 

rgds

edi

 

 

hi

 

if you go on some of the USA forums,they say it works, and they are not advertising anything. just ask the question on the sites that have been using it.now admittedly its not the best but when you take in to account hand lapping a barrel is not advised as you would have to cut of the first 1/2" of both ends of the barrel,this is fine when you have to chamber and crown it, but a bit of a pig when its all ready done. this was probably y David tubbs made the bullets in the first place,

 

ATB

Colin

[Redfox]

I have long and interesting experience with US markets and the more technical side too. I have no intention of offending our US cousins many of whom I regard as good friends and the kindest of hosts.

But not all the advertising As Edi says would hold up under European law and a bit like the guy who just bought a skoda ( old type), there is no way they go on forums and admit they just scrapped their rifle barrel, not many would do it here I might add either.

I repeat I would not put any of these abrasive bullets down my garden hose and no barrel maker I know of suggests you finish off his barrel in this way!!

Redfox

[Ronin]

In my humble opinion,,,,,,DONT DO IT

[col48]

I have long and interesting experience with US markets and the more technical side too. I have no intention of offending our US cousins many of whom I regard as good friends and the kindest of hosts.

But not all the advertising As Edi says would hold up under European law and a bit like the guy who just bought a skoda ( old type), there is no way they go on forums and admit they just scrapped their rifle barrel, not many would do it here I might add either.

I repeat I would not put any of these abrasive bullets down my garden hose and no barrel maker I know of suggests you finish off his barrel in this way!!

Redfox

 

 

hi redfox

 

i don't think we are on about which barrel makers recommends using the bullets, we are on about if they work or not.(if they where lapped in the first place ?)

i have a good friend that had a rifle(factory) that would shoot very very good, but it would only do this for 9 shots,and then the barrel had to be cleaned.this took nearly a week of his time. this is the type of barrel i would use it on,especially if you are not ready for re barreling it.

thats it for me on this one.apart from i would never use it on a custom barrel, as any custom barrel worth its salt would have been hand lapped anyway.

 

ATB

Colin

[Guest 308Panther]

Edi,

To throw my .02 in....

I would advise against lapping in a new barrel.

In either form...Fire lapping w/ coated bullets or by hand lapping.

Even if the manufacture recommended it.

 

I would instead use a "break in" method of shooting followed by a normal

cleaning procedure.Fire X amount of shots,Clean and fire X amount and Clean.

 

Unless you have a borescope....

there is no way of actually determing when all of the abrasive(s) has been removed.

Same goes for the moly compound.

 

Just shoot it,

 

 

308Panther

[ejg223]

Just found the article that got me thinking a while back.

article

For this guy it seems standard practice.

edi

[Guest 308Panther]

Good Read,

I would think it is safer to say it may be his standard practice on a Ruger or Rem Barrel,

than on all rifle barrels.

 

I would still opt for a shooting and cleaning break in process,before performing

a lap to ease breakin process.

 

By shooting it in you will better find if there is a problem,rather than thinking

there automatically is a problem.

 

In many ways the Japanese machinings are much better.

And so may be the steel mixtures.

 

I was once talking to a gunsmith about Brownings...Belgium made vs Japanese made.

He claimed the steel in the Japanese made guns was so hard it would remove the teeth from

a file.And that the Belgium made steel was actually very soft.

 

 

Like I said earlier,I would just shoot it.

I would be very surprised if you were disappointed.

 

308Panther

[ejg223]

Well thanks all for the advice,

I'll see how the howa shoots first. If it shoots better

than I can, it's pointless to mess with the barrel.

 

Panther, funny enough we used to get little pistons

made from russian back-yard metall cookers.

We thought they were the best. These lads had the knack.

Large steel production the germans are hard to beat.

Every country has it's strong points. Ireland has Guiness, he he

 

edi