Anyone here shoot cast bullets?

[Andrew]

I almost hate to bring this up but I am curious. I know at least one member of this forum does because I got him started at it.

 

In the face of the cost of bullets it's hard to imaging someone here hasn't given it at least a little thought. I shoot quite a few cast bullets both for varmint and big game and have had very good results. (My .222 will throw a 55 grain cast bullet into MOA @ 2700 ft sec and my 308 shoots half MOA with a 188 grain bullet at 2400 ft/sec.) I have killed everything from ground squirrels to mule deer with them.

 

Anybody else? ~Andrew

[baldie]

I assume you mean hardcast bullets Andrew? even so, you must get horrendous leading at those velocities?

I was looking at a .308 aw a couple of weeks ago, that was fully moderated with the factory short barrel and mod, and it was set up to shoot subsonic .308. The guy was using a cast bullet, which had 3 very thin driving bands, so as to minimise drag, i wouldn,t have thought fowling at problem for him however.

I use 240 grain hardcast in a .44magnum, and 405 grain hardcast in my 45/70 rolling block, but not at those speeds you do buddy. More info please...i,m now intruiged.

[Andrew]

Baldie: No. I actually get no leading. I use common wheel weight metal and heat treat the bullets after sizing and adding gaschecks. This is a simple process of heating the bullets at 460F for an hour and quenching them in room temp water. After which they are dried and then lubed. These bullets will come out 1/3 again harder than type metal (linotype) and take about 42K pressure without going plastic. And therein lies the key: With cast bullets, velocity is not the gremlin. Pressure is. If you load to a pressure level below the yield strength of your alloy then you will have no leading, at least. (Provided all else it done properly.) I have been shooting cast bullets from rifles since I was in high school (45-70, 45 Dutch Beaumont, etal) but started shooting them in "hi velocity" rifles in 1981. I currently have about 100 molds ranging from 5mm to 600 caliber. My most recent project is a 9.3x57 Husqvarna I will get out and load for as soon as I get off these blasted crutches. What kind of RB are you shooting? And 44 magnum?? ~Andrew

[baldie]

Aha... You are using wheel weights exclusively? Casters over here add them to pure lead, in low densities to make what we call hardcast.Its no where near as hardcast as your making.

I must admit, casting is starting to look very interesting to me, as i want to develope some better loads than i have, in the two calibres i have. The .44mag, is a marlin cowboy in 24" [1893 model] and the rolling block is a reproduction by pedersoli, which, whilst is the best of the repro,s ...its not the original thing.However it is proofed for nitro, so thats what i use, i cant be arsed with black powder.The pedersoli is the creedmore model with full tangent sights.

Roger [in the shop] has an original 1873 trapdoor springfield, in some obscure calibre, maybe 50/70 is it? and we intend to get that baby stoked up real soon. He imported it from a specialist on your side of the pond, and its mighty nice.

I,m thinking i,d like a 500 grain bullet for my 45/70, and would like to have a go at casting them, any idea,s on a mould? and type of bullet, bearing in mind it will be driven by nitro?

[Ronin]

Andrew, in answer to cast bullets, no.

 

Home swaged?

 

Very soon I hope

[Andrew]

Baldie: That Pedersoli is a nice rifle and you have no end of choices when it comes to bullets. If you want a 500 grain, Lyman makes the original 500 grain RN design of the 45-70 still. It can be ordered from any of the US distributors. Another extremely accurate bullet is the 330 grain "Gould" hollow point made by Lyman. Being a hollow point, it is tedious to cast but the results are worth it as it has a great track record for accuracy. It shoots well from all of my 45-70s. There is merit to gas-check designs but then you are in position of needing to buy gas checks and those are around $35/1000 locally. For the Rolling Block I would skip them. My Model 98 Siamese Mauser 45-70 begs them because it it such a high pressure item. I load an RCBS 300 grain GC bullet to 2200+ for tough game. Don't bemoan the fact that your Pedersoli is not "original". Original guns usually require a custom mold because they are generally over sized in the groove. I have 45-70 Trapdoor that has a .461" groove diameter. Most current molds run .458 -459 inches which makes them worthless. Your friend will be well served to slug that 50-70 before ordering a mold. If a larger then normal mold is required, N.E.I. can provide one for about $90 US. I can send you their link of you wish. (I saw a whole bunch of 50-70 gear for sale this past week: Brass and dies, etal, in a local gun shop)

 

Your .44 magnum Marlin is a curiosity. Did you mean Model 93 really? Not 84? Does it have a microgroove barrel?? Any good gascheck mold of 250 grains of smaller will work with that one. I prefer gascheck bullets with microgroove. I have shot soft, plain based bullets in a 30-30 and had far poorer results with them than a comparable gas checked bullet. If you do stick with plain based, go for a fat bullet and cast harder than usual.

 

It is odd that a "hard" bullet is pure lead with wheel weights. Here, a hard bullet is type metal (21 BHN hardness) or a mix of Wheel weights and type metal. I like heat treating bullets of Wheel Weights (31 BHN) for hi pressure loads but am not above diluting wheel weights with pure lead for hunting where the ranges are moderate. A 30 caliber, 200 grain cast bullet of this metal and fired at 1900 ft/sec will handily kill deer with good expansion and penetration. I will be shooting bullets of this alloy in my 9.3x57 when I get it up and running. The bullet is 272 grains in weight, .366" in diameter, and better than an inch long. Even the largest mule deer won't walk away from that one out to 150 yards. The last Mule deer I killed was with an RCBS 30-180-SP, heat treated and fired at 2400 ft/sec. I dropped him on the spot at 90 yards with a lung shot. I have hunted Elk with an 1898 Krag Jorgensen 30-40 and killed bison with lead bullets from a muzzle loader. An 800 pound buffalo falling to a single shot from 70 yards is a really convincing argument.

 

As you can see, I'm pretty sold on slinging lead. The more I shoot cast bullets the less need I find for jacketed. My good friend John up in the Highlands got started shooting cast bullets in his Hornet and his 243. When I was visiting last he was shooting sub 1" groups from his Brno .243 at speeds that would take a deer easily. Considering the exorbitant cost of components you guys face, the prospect of shooting penny bullets ought to appeal.

 

Ronin: Sounds great. I have considered that myself. Are you wanting to do many calibers? Or just one? C&H Dies makes a great unit that can be used in any standard reloading press. ~Andrew

[Ronin]

Ive ordered some dies in several calibres and a press from across the water from a very specialised small volume producer / engineer.

 

Hope to make my own .224, , 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and some others.

 

The order wont be ready to ship for 6 months.

 

Not cheap even with the current xch rate and a steep learning curve, but I like experimenting and its a long term goal to roll my own.........

 

Who knows, they may even shoot straight

 

We will see anyway,,,,,,,

[Andrew]

They will. I helped a buddy make .224" bullets from .22LR casings one summer. They shot into MOA with ease from his 22-250. I almost bought a rig from C&H for making 9.3 bullets from .223 casings but decided to shoot the more familiar cast loads instead. If I were you, I'd start acquiring jackets of the diameters you need. Friends of mine are quoting shortages and rising prices. Just an FYI. ~Andrew

[baldie]

Hi Andrew,

The marlin is an 1894c [cowboy] with the 24" octagonal barrel, that they dont make anymore, its a modern gun, but its the original design.In fact, i believe its as close to the original marlin, as they currently make? Its not microgroove, but Ballard? type rifling.

You are right about our hardcast not being "hard" all we use them for here, is cowboy action loads, and very light long barrelled revolver gallery ammo.This is the reason i was surprised at the speeds you drive yours at, because we,ve never seen anything like that here, and very interesting it is too.

Thanks for all that info, i,m gonna follow some of them leads up, and i would appreciate that link when you get a moment.

Thanks, dave.

[Ronin]

Quality jackets already sourced my friend!

 

Will not be using spent cases, but I know they can be very accurate!

[baldie]

Would this be the 330 grain bullet mould andrew?

 

http://www.midwayuk.com/apps/eproductpage....leItemID=370703

[Andrew]

Dave: That's the bullet. I once won a cast bullet bench rest match in the Big Bore class with a rebarreled Austrian Werndl single shot and open sights using that bullet. At 100 yards all the shots cut each other on a 12" black. On another occasion I used that bullet over (I believe) forty grains of Reloader-7 from my Siamese Mauser to take a mule deer at about 120 yards. The doe was running away from me up a the far side of a draw and I shot her between the shoulders. She hit the ground like she was thunderstruck. I watched her through the scope for a bit and was surprised to see bits of shredded lung and blood sliding out the 4" entrance hole where the spine used to be as she lay belly uphill. Good hunting round as well as target. Last Christmas, St Nick left my son a Marlin 1895 Cowboy 45-70 that we are hoping to continue load development for this Christmas time when he comes home from the University. The 457-122 is on the docket.

 

 

That 1894 is a good rifle and you are lucky to have it. I dislike microgroove rifling but since you have Ballard Rifling you are set. My favorite .44 mold is the Lyman 429-421 "Keith" style bullet @ 245 grains. It is currently catalogued as well. The RCBS 44-250 GC might be better for the 40K pressures the 44 magnum can generate. Have you hunted with the Marlin? That would make a dandy woods rifle.

 

NEI's addy is

 

www.neihandtools.com.

 

Be careful when you deal with them. Their product is great but their ordering system is lacking. I ordered my 9.3 mold,on-line, as a gas check model but got a plain base and the fool insisted that I'd ordered just that despite the fact that in the "description" box I specified a gas check. I didn't push it because it was a 2 month wait to get it. I will simply lathe-turn a gas check shank on the cast bullets when I want to GC them.

 

Casting is a pleasureful experience. When I get a good group from my own cast bullets it heightens the satisfaction I get from handloading. (And I don't feel fiscally guilty about firing off a couple of hundred bullets at a sitting!) ~Andrew

 

Ronin: Good job. Keep us posted. ~Andrew

 

PS: Dave, I am planning to fly into Inverness in the late Spring. If there is something I can tote over for you and then mail, let me know.

[baldie]

Andrew, your a gentleman, thank you for your help, and kind offer.Believe it or not, we cant get 50/70 cases, or anything that say,s .50 on it, out of the states[ because of iraq] thats as bloody daft as it is.I,m sure there could be bits for that old trapdoor needed.

I,m gonna order a mould tomorrow i think.

[Andrew]

I'm not sure I understand. You mean because of the "50 caliber" designation?? How about 515-70? (That 's the actual caliber of the rifle, not .500) Makes me want to run to town, pick up the brass and dies, and mail them to you out of spite for silly laws. ~Andrew

[baldie]

Yep, its the .50 cal designation Andrew.We got an export license the other day for Lilja barrels, as they do some lovely rimfires as well as centrefires, and it designates "bores up to .49". Anything that mentions .50 is a no no.

[Andrew]

Well. Where there's a will, there's a way. I hope you get it up and running. It's a very interesting cartridge. Big chunky bullets at 1200 ft/sec.! ~Andrew

[Andrew]

Baldie: I forgot to ask what twist your Rolling Block is. Is it a 1:22? ~Andrew

[baldie]

Do you know Andrew, i havent got a clue? the thought,s never crossed my mind, i will look it up.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

I tried some in my pistol (.357 mag s&w police) but it didnt like em so now use copper jackets with exposed head

 

I feel happier with the coppers anyhows cause they go through animal skulls better

 

so if anyone wants a that which promotes growth and vigour load of 38/357 semi wad gas checks then they will go dirt cheap

[Andrew]

Silent: What diameter did you make / buy them? Most S&W's tolerate a .358 well tho I have a Model 28 "N" frame that needs .359's to shoot best. The first deer I killed with a handgun was with a Ruger .357 magnum and a 160 grain SWC. Hard to imagine you can't penetrate an animal's skull with a lead bullet from a .357! Must be some tough critter!

 

I really like fitting cast bullets to revolvers. At one time I did a bumper business reworking the cylinders of Italian Uberti Revolvers so that the chamber mouths (throats) were larger than the groove diameter of the barrel. In the late seventies and early eighties Uberti let loose a slew of Remington 1875 and Colt 1873 replicas that had the throats smaller than the groove diameters of the barrels which made accurate cast bullet shooting impossible. 44-40's were the worst offenders. A .428" throat and a .430 groove. Leaded like crazy and put out shotgun pattern groups at 25M.

 

Baldie: Just curious about the twist; Don't go out of your way. I just got to thinking that I believe they made some of the 45-70's with 1-18" or 1-20" twists. My favorite RB was a Remington 1901 "smokeless" action that I barreled to .444 Marlin with a 1-18" twist. It shot one particular 365 grain cast bullet exceptionally well. Again, someone offered me too much money for it one dark day and it was gone! ~Andrew

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

they are gn hardcast rn-fp 158gr .358

 

they are only a pain coz my dam pistol which cost me £400 has got fixed built in sights for combat/police and they shoot mega low and left

 

now say I dont wanna be brave and get reall close to thrashing antlers then these are a pain as I would need to be at least five feet away

 

the jacket boys shoot straight as these are what the gun was intended for and given they will expand well I feel happier anyhows over kill is better than no kill I figure

 

one good side on the fixed sight though, it does mean that its easier to fit in a little backpack or bum bag as you dont have to worry bout sight getting nocked

 

I have a maxpedition fat boy that is like a multipocket hand bag and she fits into the purpose made pistol pouch which is handy coz with section 5's you cant leave them locked in the boot of your car to nip into shop etc etc like you can with section 1

 

though I allways leave ammo in car as I am sure that will be ok and would be hard to explain unless a cow is wondering around in asda foaming at the mouth

 

there must be over 400 left if you are interested?

 

I dont really know that which promotes growth and vigour about pistols but reloadings ok 4 me

[Andrew]

SS: That's odd that they shoot the way they do from you Smith & Wesson. Police departments used to cast bullets and reload their own practice ammunition for service revolver shooting with no change in zero. Indeed, the most popular law enforcement load for the .38 Special used to be Winchester's 200 grain "Super Police" round nose lead bullet. My Military and Police 38 Special, my Model 10 Heavy barrel .38 (service revolver), and my 2nd Hand Ejector 44 Special all have fixed sights with no change in point of impact using lead. With my adjustable sighted Smiths, (M-28 4", M-28 6", and Model 27 8 3/8" : all 357's) I have no appreciable POI change between cast or jacketed bullets provided the weight and velocity are the same.

 

What load were you using in your Smith?~Andrew

 

PS: Thanks for the offer of the bullets but the shipping to Montana would be a killer!

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

the load I used for the cast was taken from hodgdon manual (the big one) and was 5gr titegroup

 

the load I use for 160gr copper is 6gr titegroup

 

the cast would shoot very low left but the coppers shoot spot on

 

the s&w was an issued police and was provided with a test card but sat in the armoury and not used however it was engraved with some extra numbers

 

not noing that which promotes growth and vigour all about reloading for pistol when buying it I was advised to buy titegroup so I did but later found its not the best for 357mag

 

since the powder is going to last a that which promotes growth and vigour load of time for my use of the tool I figured I just use it

 

its a 581

[Andrew]

That is a very fine handgun, indeed. I have had my eye out for one of those. Yes: Tite group is not the best powder for that cartridge. It is a little pressure peaky for that cast bullet. If you'd chosen Lil Gun or H-110, or some other powder that generated less pressure you'd probably have gotten better results. Lil Gun in magnum handgun loads really fascinates me. The speeds are top notch and the pressures are very mild.

 

Well. That is a fine gun you have there. Sorry the cast loads didn't work out for you. Maybe you can give them a try with a different powder some time. ~Andrew

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

thanks for the tip, when I eventually run low on the that which promotes growth and vigour powder I will try lil

 

I just had to buy everything at once cause thats me....impulsive

 

got home,checked the manual and oh that which promotes growth and vigour what did I buy that for?

 

still these coppers are awsome and I like over kill cause dead is dead, it dont get any deader, just makes you feel better for trying

 

tried um the other day on half dead matter and one eyeball left the scene