30 cal cuts

[ejg223]

I cut open a couple heads to have a look at jacket thickness

and build. My rifle shoots extemely well with all the 155gr and

not so great with the 150 Nos BTs.

If Sika does and calfs are the target what would be your

opinion be on these bullets bearing in mind being shot out of

a slowish 308. The VLDs and Nos are recomended for game

and the other two are of non expanding type?? Shot a fox through

the shoulder with the a-max before and the damage wasn't

worse than with my 223 and varmint bullet.

Would the SMK Palma open too late?

edi

[325WSM]

The chemical compoosition of the copper and the style and type of core bonding all have a significant effect on the makeup of the bullet and the purposes for which it was made.

 

Simply stay with manufacturers guidence and if they say it is a Varmint bullet dont use it on deer just use those that are sold as Hunting bullets.

 

Try cutting up the 6mm Ballistic Tips - some are Varmint and some are Hunting but on immeadiate examination they seem the same - Stay legal, stay humane and stay sensible. The manufacturers know a lot more about what makes a good bullet than 99.9% of those that shoot them.

[ejg223]

WSM,

i'm not sure if some bullet manufacturers don't sometimes lie about

there bullets for political or legal reasons. Isn't it true that snipers

sometimes use target bullets? correct me I'm not certain. If the manufacturer

would mention that this head expands great on game or varmint wouldn't it

be rejected by agencies. Don't these snipers have to use non expanding ammo.

For this reason I just don't believe everything that's written on the box.

At the moment I've still got a couple 165SST's that shoot quite ok and might

get my hands on some 165 Nos Bts that also work ok.

The combination of a halfway rapidly expanding bullet at lets say over 200m

in the slowish 308 could work. And I was astonished at the make up of the

berger VLDs recomended also for game. Now they look as if they might open

a bit too dramatic.

Shot my few deer with fed fusion factory ammo last year and retrieved 4 heads

out of the animals. They performed really good and looked like on the add, only

to fail terribly bad on one animal. Hit shoulder at 60 yds broadside, bullet split and

had two exits way off track. As if it bounced off the bone and broke up, one

exit was on the same side as the entrance. No clue how it happened.

edi

[Guest 308Panther]

Hi Edi,

Yes,its very true snipers use match grade bullets...or as you call them bullet heads.

Stay with what the bullet makers claims for the type of animal your hunting.

The reason(s) for the manufactures claims are for liabilities and ethical animal treatment.

We kill an animal with better ammo then what we shoot at ourselves.

The only other ammo differance may be in a tact situation where its reliability over anything else.

Or in other words,It better go bang every time ya lookin at a bad guy with a weapon....

Military snipers are concerned with one thing....Where its goin.

 

308Panther

[Ronin]

Ejg223

 

emotive subject on this forum and elsewhere in the UK.

 

Deer Act 1991 states all but the following are prohibited, "Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet"

 

You will notice the English Act makes no mention of "designed to expand" as the Scottish Act does.

 

Therefore, soft nosed = lead tip, maybe plastic tip as in ballistic tip but I personally think they are hard (especially when you stick it in something)

 

Hollow point, well a hollow point is a hollow point is a hollow point.

 

Interesting to note that Berger regard their bullets as being suitiable for deer now (some calibres)

 

Also interesting to note that this debate has raged in the US for years (should I use match bullets over game bullets on game)

 

 

Me, I use Barnes TSX....hollow point with match accuracy.

[ejg223]

Hi Ronin,

of coures I knew that this subject is a bit touchy.

What the hell, i'm a engineer and like to understand things.

Being responsible also means looking a little further than

just believing adds on bullet packets.

I will use the bullet that I'm convinced of being best suitable.

 

Lets see what happened in the last couple years,

one developement went towards "the bullet must stay together"

and have great penetration. A bragging contest started about

weight retention. So the bullets got stronger and harder.

Wound channel smaller and meat damage lower. These heads

might make sense impacting at over 3000fps but at a little

over 2000 fps you might as well use a FMJ.

In german forums they write that a 308 and 3006 is not suitable

for the little roe. They claim a roe shot with these will almost always

run 100yds. Why?? well I'd say possibly because the germans prefer

180 grainers that are real tough and can also be used for boar.

With that moderate speed the bullet will just punch a little hole through.

The ammount of roe that they 'humanely' loose is unreal.

Wouldn't happen if they'd use a a-max, or something softer.

 

From the states one hears that some bullets tend to blow up on the surface.

Often because a bullet designed for a 3006 is loaded into some ultra magnum

and shot at short range.

 

Finding a good compromise is the name of the game.

 

edi

[Ronin]

Exactly my point, use what you know works best and stick to it.

 

For my own purposes, I prefer accuracy over "game performance", in latter years I relied of SST's and Interlocks for larger species of deer in .257 and .264 calibres, but having had a dramatic failiure of an SST on a stag last year, I now use Barnes, I await a delivery of some Moeller monometals to see how they perform.

 

I once tested a series of Sect 5 bullets in Deer magazine, what I didn't publish was that I also tested match bullets in the same test - I recall it was a penetration / expansion test firing at 100 yards into a ply target with wet (soaking) newsprint behind to replicate tough skin and then internal organs - long before I had heard of ballistic gellatin i'm afraid.

 

Now the test results were quite striking in the fact that the so called "frangible" match bullets penetrated as deeply and also more importantly expanded without blowing up almost as well as the game specific bullets.

 

Some did lose their jackets (berger 140's I think), but the SMK's held up well, as did some Speer match.

 

Before anyone jumps on this, I AM NOT ADVOKATING THE USE OF MATCH BULLETS ON DEER IN TH UK.

 

 

Interesting if emotive subject though

[ejg223]

Ronin,

I'm not saying that I'll use one of these bullets right now

but trying to see what experience others had and it's

a very interesting subject.

Took pictures of the retrieved fed fusion 150gr heads.

I was very impressed the way they looked and performed

except for that one occasion. The only problem is that the second

batch I bought just didn't shoot well and i noticed all heads where

seated at different heights. Quite a big difference.

The fusing of lead and copper seemed to work well and the famous weight

retention was very good. At 60yds through bone on a sika stag was over 80%.

A sika hind at 250yds was 94% retention. The heads were retrieved under the skin

opposite side.

edi

[Bambi-basher]

Any of you guys read November's Sporting Rifle Magazine? on page 74 there is a photo of a fox that has been shoot the comment next to it reads Quote :-"******** sends this from Sevenoaks Kent. Custom rifle using 250 "Klench-blaize" (Ruag 6X47 Swiss Match necked up to .25 with blown-out taper and ackley-type shoulder). Bullet is an 87-grain non expanding match at 3385fps Distance, confirmed by Leica rangefinder, 285 yards."

 

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[Ronin]

Have to say Bambi that I use match bullets when foxing.

 

 

I know of others who use SMK and Berger VLD's on Deer, none have required a second shot.

 

A very well respected US smiths adage - "all animals react badly to bullets"

 

Edi those have held together quite well considering the abuse they have undergone!

 

I prefer to use the right bullet for my purpose - deer get bullets designed to expand (no matter what the damn things cost!)

[325WSM]

VLD were always said to be unsuitable for deer BUT....

 

Recent experiments have proven the design to not only be acceptable for deer but actually particularly good. A hunt in NZ (which included Mark Durfee of Berger) resulted in overwhelming acceptance of the consistent way the bullet expands and the devastating results it produced. Anyone wishing to read same email me for a copy.

M

[Bambi-basher]

To Quote from the Hornady Manual :- A-Max, "This bullet is also excellent for hunting thin-skinned game." does this therefore make it sec 5?

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[325WSM]

No........but ideal for squirrels

[Ronin]

and foxes

[325WSM]

I must say I like something that penetrates a fox rather than exploding just under the surface so stick with more suitable bullets.

Besides most of my foxes are shot when out for deer so they just receive whatever 'Hunting Bullet' is being used for the deer - anything from 100grn up to 220gr Dependant on rifle used.

[ejg223]

I've heard of 155g a-maxes being used on hinds with very good results.

 

Apart from what is said my guess would be just by looking at the first picture:

The Nos BT would open very fast and hold together fairly well after that. Might not

be the best when heavy bone is hit first.

The a-max might open slightly later than the Nos, but then keep opening.

The SMK Palma looks to me as if it would open quite delayed, say after 2"

or so and then keep opening, a bit less dramatic than the a-max.

The VLD looks as it could also open less delayed, then very hefty and

less chance of coming out the other side.

 

Just my guess, don't think that any of these are bonded anyway and

by looking at them I wouldn't think that the Nos would be garanteed best.

 

edi

[Bambi-basher]

As it states "game" to me that means deer to me foxes equal vermint.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[Guest 308Panther]

We have I am sure ya know a few magazine columnists that

have used match grade stuff on deer....and with some amount

of success too...But not a one of them will say what brand,weight

or load spec and velocities they used.....so it leaves alot open for

reader interpretations....Not the best of positions for the end user to be in.

 

Every single shot is differant,just like every single day is differant,and so

is every single deer.

 

I have seen a heart shot deer drop in its tracks and I have seen one run a

ways too...and by a ways I mean more then 250 yrds....Only thing they had in common was they were heart shot...2 differant shooters,calibers,ammos....One was feeding, one was running from the drivers.

 

The thought that is or has been running thru my mind would be

At what point do you or can you say that this combination of Brand X Bullet,velocity, powder isnt working ? How much meat loss around the wound area is acceptable? How many neighboring properties does it have to run across?

 

Your deer hunting is very very differant than ours...

In my State our season is 9 days long....

If you shoot and wound a deer and it falls dead on the next door neighbors land....Its the neighbors deer.(I dont like it,but thats the way it is) Or ya better get in,get it,and get out fast...before anyone sees it or you....We are also required to wear Blaze Orange Clothing.Its not a good idea to be in the woods without it,either.

 

Writing this I started wondering somethin else...so I went and checked.

Now...I am a Life Member of the North American Hunting Club,and basically it means nothing,except that I get their mag for free....but its been awhile since I saw an advertisement for this ammo or that ammo in the mag...I just got Nov issue earlier this week...I went page by page and only seen one ad for a Bullet (Rem Premium Cor Lokt Ultra Bonded now available for handloaders) even tho there is almost every rifle maker...Ruger,Rem,T/C,etc ...Almost every scope maker,boot maker,cover scent

you can almost name it and there is an ad for it....except ammo.

So I went back another month (Oct) son of a gun....there were only 3 ads...and they were for waterfowl ammo.

 

Oct thru to Janurary (for some states) is deer hunting....Whats happening that the ammo makers arent pushing thier products?

 

Ok...Ramblings over.

 

Edi,

Those Fusion slugs ya recovered looked very similar to some Rem Core Lokt

slugs I have recovered

 

308Panther

[Guest 308Panther]

As it states "game" to me that means deer to me foxes equal vermint.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

 

Antelope.....Their hide is alot thinner than a Whitetail...and they are more muscular toned

w/less body fat and a lighter bone stucture.

It dont take alot to drop one.

Guess the closest ya got is Roe

 

Game can mean anything from varmints as fox and yotes to Deer or Elk...

If its huntable its "game".

 

308Panther

[Redfox]

ANy animal reasonably relaxed/feeding will not run as far as one disturbed and full of adrenaline, they can often run a long way before dropping.

Redfox

[Bambi-basher]

....Whats happening that the ammo makers arent pushing thier products?

 

308Panther

 

That's no boner mate they are struggling to make enough as most is going to Afghanistan or Iraq, no point advertising ammo you are struggling to supply, it would be a waste of your advertising money.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[Guest 308Panther]

That's no boner mate they are struggling to make enough as most is going to Afghanistan or Iraq, no point advertising ammo you are struggling to supply, it would be a waste of your advertising money.

 

Best rgds

B-b

 

If the only guns in the world were .223, .308 .30-06,300WinMag and .50BMG.

I might agree....and if the only ammo makers were Rem,Fed and Win I might agree...

But there are alot more than just those.

 

 

308Panther

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

ed thats brill

 

all these people that say you are breaking the law by using a match bullet such as vld or amax dont know the law

 

a hollow point bullet as someone has rightly mentioned can cover vld, smk etc and a soft nose can cover a plastic tip ( it is designed to cause the bullet to expand )

 

when they lose the argument regarding uk law they turn to the " its not very sportman like"

 

well I got news for them a..h.les cause a "hunting bullet" in the hands of a numpty is ten times more cruel than a "match bullet" in the hands of an expert

 

anyways your expansion test says it all and if you tested hundreds of bullets it would only show the same that really a bullet is a bullet, it has a lead core and copper jacket, it normally has a means of expanding well ie plastic tip or hollow or soft nose and at the end of the day when recovered they all look practically the same, telling the story that they all did pretty much the same

 

I hate these d..k h..ds that say a "match bullet" will go in the heart and come out of a thigh.....bul. .hi.

 

good on you mate

 

oh yeh ummmmm I use 178 gr a-max for deer in a 300wm

 

it punches a nice big hole in and out of the ribs of a roe that you can pass your arm through

 

the deer drops on the spot NO RUNNERS

 

yes my ears are burning now but who eats the ribs on a roe anyhows?

 

bet mine are more humane kills than a make do'er with a "hunting bullet" in a lighty bbl happy to hit 4-6" at 200yrd or even 100

 

ouuuuch there really burning now

 

178gr a-max at 3000fps or 210vld at 2900 fricking laaaazor beam

 

somebody throw me a ficking bone here

[ejg223]

ed thats brill

 

all these people that say you are breaking the law by using a match bullet such as vld or amax dont know the law

 

a hollow point bullet as someone has rightly mentioned can cover vld, smk etc and a soft nose can cover a plastic tip ( it is designed to cause the bullet to expand )

 

when they lose the argument regarding uk law they turn to the " its not very sportman like"

 

well I got news for them a..h.les cause a "hunting bullet" in the hands of a numpty is ten times more cruel than a "match bullet" in the hands of an expert

 

anyways your expansion test says it all and if you tested hundreds of bullets it would only show the same that really a bullet is a bullet, it has a lead core and copper jacket, it normally has a means of expanding well ie plastic tip or hollow or soft nose and at the end of the day when recovered they all look practically the same, telling the story that they all did pretty much the same

 

I hate these d..k h..ds that say a "match bullet" will go in the heart and come out of a thigh.....bul. .hi.

 

good on you mate

 

oh yeh ummmmm I use 178 gr a-max for deer in a 300wm

 

it punches a nice big hole in and out of the ribs of a roe that you can pass your arm through

 

the deer drops on the spot NO RUNNERS

 

yes my ears are burning now but who eats the ribs on a roe anyhows?

 

bet mine are more humane kills than a make do'er with a "hunting bullet" in a lighty bbl happy to hit 4-6" at 200yrd or even 100

 

ouuuuch there really burning now

 

178gr a-max at 3000fps or 210vld at 2900 fricking laaaazor beam

 

somebody throw me a ficking bone here

 

nice one Ja,

what's important is to find out what works well and if

it doesn't .. change quickly

Like in the other thread about neck shots, not much margin for error and

good reliability in accuracy is the name of the game.

 

Was talking to a friend today who is looking for factory hunting round in 308,

after going through whats available he mentioned that a well respected gun dealer

advised using 167 scenars and that people are having great success with them on deer.

 

 

edi

[eldon]

Caution.

Is it wise on an open forum to self incriminate on what is a dubious as in technically correct, subject.

Not judging here but my thoughts at least until the whole fiasco is resolved.

 

I am aware that some people have had success with amax.