Jackdaw Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I have a Sako short action in store and was considering building a dedicated truck/vermin rifle with it. I want something that will be capable of 250-300yd vermin shooting, foxes and crows mostly yet still cope with a bit of competative range shooting when I get the change to play with the lads. I was considering either a 22-250AI or 243AI using 60-75 gr bullets. But I'm open to reasonable suggestions. I don't mind a bit of wild catting but don't really want to be spending half a day doing case prep each time I want to load a box of ammo. calibre, barrel makes, profiles, and rates of twist have all become a bit of a nightmare in the decision process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skany Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 I have a Sako short action in store and was considering building a dedicated truck/vermin rifle with it. I want something that will be capable of 250-300yd vermin shooting, foxes and crows mostly yet still cope with a bit of competative range shooting when I get the change to play with the lads. I was considering either a 22-250AI or 243AI using 60-75 gr bullets. But I'm open to reasonable suggestions. I don't mind a bit of wild catting but don't really want to be spending half a day doing case prep each time I want to load a box of ammo. calibre, barrel makes, profiles, and rates of twist have all become a bit of a nightmare in the decision process. I had been using a 243ai wich was great but ive swapped over to a 6br in tight twist (1-8) Im liking the 6br a lot more & cant see the a1 tube ever being screwed back on! I load up 55g noslers @ jsut a under 3800fps for point & squirt vermin! 105g Amax if im plikng /dialing! both bullets shoot very very well! its a lot more economial to load powder & brass wise & very gentle to shoot! my 243ai load was a 65g vmax @ 3700plus so my 55g nosler BR load is actualy flater! cheers andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyH Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 If it's strictly 250-300 yards I'd have thought this was .223 territory: the cartridge will handle this distance perfectly well and you don't even need heavy bullets/fast twist, unless you plan on shooting in gale-force crosswinds. I put together my .223 walkaround varminter for exactly the same max distance you mention, with a standard load using the 40gr V-Max at 3800fps out of a standard 1:12 barrel, and it always worked very well. I only had it re-built in 20Tac because I wanted to push out the distance a little and get custom accuracy: .223 is an excellent calibre. Don't know what distance you want to shoot at on the range (and I know nothing about competition target shooting) but if it's extended you could just have a faster than standard barrel and use 60-70gr match bullets. I'd say the "big boomers" like fast-twist 22-250 or the 6mm calibres and up are only desirable if you want to shoot consistently at varmints from 400 yards out to the horizon, in which case the extra powder consumption, greater noise, heavier/dearer bullets etc, are worthwhile. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finman Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 My vote goes to the 6mmBR. Flat, accurate, economic and will reach well over 300 yards with ease. It vaporises varmints and if you have the right barrel to get you 3000fps with the 87gn BTHP, you can down a deer too. You know it makes sense best wishes, Finman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Tony's right, a std .223 would do but the 6BR would be far more interesting Very efficient little cartridge that one Chris-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdaw Posted February 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Cheers guys. I hadn't considered the 6br. What rate of twist would you recommend? 1:8 would seem to work best but I don't want to have to have a 26"-28" barrel on it as it will be used quite a bit out of the truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted February 25, 2011 Report Share Posted February 25, 2011 Depends what boltface the sako is really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdaw Posted February 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Depends what boltface the sako is really. Its has a .470inch bolt face and a floor plate magazine as it was L579 Forester model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
247sniper Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 Any resaon why you wouldnt choose a .20cal, very fast/fastest, very flat/flattest and plenty ok KO for what you want? Cheers Guys Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporting rifles Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 my 243ai load was a 65g vmax @ 3700plus so my 55g nosler BR load is actualy flater! cheers andy how can you say its flatter mate when your using a lighter pill,you have to compare like for like my AI runs a 74gr at 3772 FPS flatter than your BR and your AI,so that must make it better and iam using a heavier pill with a better BC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 how can you say its flatter mate when your using a lighter pill,you have to compare like for like my AI runs a 74gr at 3772 FPS flatter than your BR and your AI,so that must make it better and iam using a heavier pill with a better BC But using how much powder !!, I also think that 20 would be ideal, especially 20BR, 50 gr Bergers at around 3600 - 3800 using 29.5 - 31 grains of slow N150 or less using faster powders, will easily do what you wantto 350 yards and way further if needed. No recoil much, see the impacts, reasonable barrel life, whats not to like. You wont see many impacts with a 243AI unless it is very heavy. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporting rifles Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 But using how much powder !!, I also think that 20 would be ideal, especially 20BR, 50 gr Bergers at around 3600 - 3800 using 29.5 - 31 grains of slow N150 or less using faster powders, will easily do what you wantto 350 yards and way further if needed. No recoil much, see the impacts, reasonable barrel life, whats not to like. You wont see many impacts with a 243AI unless it is very heavy. A powder is irrelevant mate,its performance that counts I see impacts perfectly well,not that you need to anyway the slap on impact gives it away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybrock Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 powder is irrelevant mate,its performance that counts I see impacts perfectly well,not that you need to anyway the slap on impact gives it away If it's performance that counts then a 6mm ppc will out perform anything in the accuracy stakes out to 300 yds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporting rifles Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 If it's performance that counts then a 6mm ppc will out perform anything in the accuracy stakes out to 300 yds! cant argue with that,problem is it may run out of killing power,superb on paper target though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyH Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 cant argue with that,problem is it may run out of killing power,superb on paper target though What kind of varmint do you want to shoot for which 6mmppc (or .223...) might not pack enough punch at 300 yards? Whatever it is, I don't want to meet it in the dark... Anything from crows to foxes is dead meat when hit squarely with a .223 at that sort of range, using a good varmint bullet - same goes for the 20 cals or small-case 6mms. In terms of performance on an absolute scale, of course, they don't measure up against a 155mm howitzer. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporting rifles Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 What kind of varmint do you want to shoot for which 6mmppc (or .223...) might not pack enough punch at 300 yards? Whatever it is, I don't want to meet it in the dark... Anything from crows to foxes is dead meat when hit squarely with a .223 at that sort of range, using a good varmint bullet - same goes for the 20 cals or small-case 6mms. In terms of performance on an absolute scale, of course, they don't measure up against a 155mm howitzer. Tony 300 yard is a long way if a animal is lets say miss hit(it does happen),so the little calibers dont carry enough energy to do massive damage which will kill the animal,and as we all know distances at night are some what different in the day time so taking a 250 yard shot may turn out to be a 300 yard plus shot,having a caliber which is more than capable in my opionon and experiences is the best one to choose,you use what ever you think is best mate,if you want a howitzer thats your choice after going out with guys with the small calibers Ive seen a lot of running vermin when hit anyway thats my opinion taken from the experiences i have had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyH Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 300 yard is a long way if a animal is lets say miss hit....................... after going out with guys with the small calibers Ive seen a lot of running vermin when hit anyway thats my opinion taken from the experiences i have had I think we have to assume a suitable degree of skill and judgement. The "small calibres" to which you refer are the traditional varmint calibres; 6mm rounds were traditionally for bigger stuff. Lots of people build varmint rifles on 6mm of course; but .243AI is heavy stuff, a great varmint calibre for long range (my Canadian chum has one - his longest groundhog was over 900 yards) so once we start suggesting this sort of thing for distances as short as 250-300 yards "just in case", then to apply the same principle when varmint hunting at half a mile or so we'd have to consider 338 Mag or something. Which would be silly. The OP asked about 250-300 yards, and a .223 or one of the 20s is custom made for this. Any varmint hit in the torso with a decent modern varmint bullet in .204" or .224" that goes off like a miniature grenade won't go far; and if it's just hit in a limb, or winged, it doesn't matter what size the bullet is. YMMV... Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 powder is irrelevant mate,its performance that counts I see impacts perfectly well,not that you need to anyway the slap on impact gives it away One of the things I like about shooting is seeing teh arrival of my bullet or shot pattern on teh target, be it paper, a fox at 200 yards or a driven pheasant at 40 yards with the wind up his bum, How many gives way to how in time, the skill is doing the same with less, using a stilleto not a sledgehammer !. Andy, As it happens I also have a 6PPC, up to 300 yards drops are similar and it certainly packs around 40% more energy using a 65gr Vmax than the BR using the 50 Berger, and it uses a similar volume of powder and bullet costs are similar. So I agree there is no real benefit using it over the 20BR as you say at 300 or less. Both imho are more suited to the sub 3000 yard task than the 243AI. Over 300 then the AI using heavier Vmax does come to the fore but I would still prefer to have my 20BR in my hands. Just my opinion, A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporting rifles Posted February 26, 2011 Report Share Posted February 26, 2011 One of the things I like about shooting is seeing teh arrival of my bullet or shot pattern on teh target, be it paper, a fox at 200 yards or a driven pheasant at 40 yards with the wind up his bum, How many gives way to how in time, the skill is doing the same with less, using a stilleto not a sledgehammer !. Andy, As it happens I also have a 6PPC, up to 300 yards drops are similar and it certainly packs around 40% more energy using a 65gr Vmax than the BR using the 50 Berger, and it uses a similar volume of powder and bullet costs are similar. So I agree there is no real benefit using it over the 20BR as you say at 300 or less. Both imho are more suited to the sub 3000 yard task than the 243AI. Over 300 then the AI using heavier Vmax does come to the fore but I would still prefer to have my 20BR in my hands. Just my opinion, A I think we have to assume a suitable degree of skill and judgement. The "small calibres" to which you refer are the traditional varmint calibres; 6mm rounds were traditionally for bigger stuff. Lots of people build varmint rifles on 6mm of course; but .243AI is heavy stuff, a great varmint calibre for long range (my Canadian chum has one - his longest groundhog was over 900 yards) so once we start suggesting this sort of thing for distances as short as 250-300 yards "just in case", then to apply the same principle when varmint hunting at half a mile or so we'd have to consider 338 Mag or something. Which would be silly. The OP asked about 250-300 yards, and a .223 or one of the 20s is custom made for this. Any varmint hit in the torso with a decent modern varmint bullet in .204" or .224" that goes off like a miniature grenade won't go far; and if it's just hit in a limb, or winged, it doesn't matter what size the bullet is. YMMV... Tony some very good points BUT I have just come in from a hight foxing with my mate,we both have idedical 243 AI,I shot 2 1 head shot the other perfect chest shot,he shot his in the back end,the the wind was quite strong,it jump in the air spun around and was dead within seconds,this is my point the extra umf the 243 gives allows for a miss placed shot,a small light less powerfull caliber the fox may have made it away again just my opinion and experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skany Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 how can you say its flatter mate when your using a lighter pill,you have to compare like for like my AI runs a 74gr at 3772 FPS flatter than your BR and your AI,so that must make it better and iam using a heavier pill with a better BC Hi Pete im sure we had done this before ! my br laod is using a lighter bullet then the 65g vmax but the bc of 55g nosler is almost the same! it is however moving faster then the load I was runiing in the 243ai so basicaly zeroed at 100 yds 6br running 55g nos @ 3800 drops 6.3" 243ai running 65g vmax @ 3700 drops 6.8! @ 400yds 6br 16.2 drop 243ai 17.3 drop heres ur load 74g PB @ 3772 = 6.1 " @ 300 15.5 @ 400 not exactly chalk & cheese are they! so basicaly the same performance in the real world with a shed load less recoil & powder! if you could tell the differance between any of that in the field ur doing very well! U can feel the benifit of sod all recoil every shot tho as i fox without a mod on its brillinat!!! cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporting rifles Posted February 27, 2011 Report Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Pete im sure we had done this before ! my br laod is using a lighter bullet then the 65g vmax but the bc of 55g nosler is almost the same! it is however moving faster then the load I was runiing in the 243ai so basicaly zeroed at 100 yds 6br running 55g nos @ 3800 drops 6.3" 243ai running 65g vmax @ 3700 drops 6.8! @ 400yds 6br 16.2 drop 243ai 17.3 drop heres ur load 74g PB @ 3772 = 6.1 " @ 300 15.5 @ 400 not exactly chalk & cheese are they! so basicaly the same performance in the real world with a shed load less recoil & powder! if you could tell the differance between any of that in the field ur doing very well! U can feel the benifit of sod all recoil every shot tho as i fox without a mod on its brillinat!!! cheers Andy mate its no good guessing my drops on a ballistic calc as there just not right,you keep kidding yourself on the BR thats its the same performance as there a million miles apart but as long as your happy thats all that matters,shame you have to use such a light bullet to get near the performance of the AI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skany Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 mate its no good guessing my drops on a ballistic calc as there just not right,you keep kidding yourself on the BR thats its the same performance as there a million miles apart but as long as your happy thats all that matters,shame you have to use such a light bullet to get near the performance of the AI pete if balsitic calculators didnt work then how would we ever hit stuff at long range! dont give me Known come ups as that only works on the day tested & dosent give any account for air temp/charge temp/angle to target/presure ect the calculators fill in the gaps mate may be a bit out but again not much(brown dogs is best!)! ive got my data for my 243ai remeber & the br matches it for the speed I was loading at! if my tube lifed the 55g nosler then sure id have had a good extra bit of speed out of the AI but it didnt & i didnt! and I am happy with the br as you can tell thats me done talking about it cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sporting rifles Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 pete if balsitic calculators didnt work then how would we ever hit stuff at long range! dont give me Known come ups as that only works on the day tested & dosent give any account for air temp/charge temp/angle to target/presure ect the calculators fill in the gaps mate may be a bit out but again not much(brown dogs is best!)! ive got my data for my 243ai remeber & the br matches it for the speed I was loading at! if my tube lifed the 55g nosler then sure id have had a good extra bit of speed out of the AI but it didnt & i didnt! and I am happy with the br as you can tell thats me done talking about it cheers Andy mate again your missing a very big fact,you are not uisng the same weight bullet in your BR so it isnt the same speed as you AI,its like saying a 222 shooting a 40 gr bullet is a match for a 22.250 shooting a 55,both will be similar speeds but which one is better load your BR with the same bullet as you used in your AI then tell me its the same I didnt say ballistic calcs didnt work mate,i said you cannot guess the data of my loads as you havnt got all the required info,I stuill say there was something not quite right with your AI as Iam still uisng brass thats been fired a lot,infact there from my first barrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 Of course 243AI is suitable but you will be using over 40 grains of powder unless using a faster powder with a lesser fill and likely higher ES. BR uses around 30gr usually, PPC a shade less, just depends on the riflemans preference for sledgehammer or stiletto, there are times when a sledgehammer is handy, windy night at 350 yards for example but most of the time the lesser cases get the job done ok. It does not take a great deal of power to kill a fox with a properly placed projectile and PPC and BR cases do have an accuracy edge over 243 AI, easier to shoot due to less recoil is one reason, just look at what is shot in competition. I also load the 6mm 55s the same as 65s, 29.5gr x N133 for everything, velocity is not that much different, 150 FPS or so, Once my 55s have gone I wont replace them. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted February 28, 2011 Report Share Posted February 28, 2011 ..just depends on the riflemans preference for sledgehammer or stiletto, there are times when a sledgehammer is handy, windy night at 350 yards for example but most of the time the lesser cases get the job done ok... A Totally right. My "little" .223 does the biz on 95% of varmint shots I make and I can live with the difference. Sure, it's nice to take the 6.5x47 for a stroll but it's total overkill on stuff under 200yds, ie 80% of what I ended up blasting. Efficiency is what it's all about IMHO Chris-NZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg.0972b4e2bdf0b5a4109eb96f2b1b62ad.jpg)
(200x135).jpg.0fd0a94f065c6cb243fdff1b40e0819a.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.