Dog Training Collars -any recommended -any to avoid?

[brown dog]

Dear All,

 

Looking for 1st hand advice on dog training collars -had a look on Ebay and they seem to range from £20 to £100.

 

-Please don't chip in if you only want to say you don't approve of them.

 

Situation:

 

My 11 month old Lab is a super dog; responsive to training and keen to please. Sitting and returning to the whistle at all distances -99% of the time.

 

The 1% involves sheep or deer; when he goes deaf -and is off like a rocket before I can react.

 

These situations are not predictable where I live (moveable sheep pennings on open grassland). I've also recently learnt that his mother once killed a sheep.

 

A five minute 'disappearance' happened again today; eventually emerging 800m away chasing a roe. He could equally have got himself into a penning on the otherside of a woodline (had there been one - but it was a deer this time).

 

I need to nip this in the bud; a 'cruel to be kind' lifesaver: a dog training collar with 500m or so reach is in my (and his) future.

 

 

Grateful for any first hand recommendations or 'avoids'.

 

Thanks

[Elwood]

I had/have a pet safe collar, it was pretty basic but did its job at short distances. All I can say is pay as much as you can afford as you will need a collar with a good range ( consider the price of a new dog!) and bare in mind collars don't always work. I took a friends lab in for behavioural training and the collar had little or no effect, however this dog was a psycho and I gave up on it in the end.

 

I'm not fond of the E collars but if it's the difference between making or breaking a dog so be it. As the dog is young there's still a chance. Have you tried sitting in a field with sheep and with the dog on a long lead, sometimes they just get board of it, especially when young, if you can, walk it through the field every day on a tight leash when you think the dog is doing ok try using a flexi lead, if he's walking and not pulling and you're confident then walk him around the outside of the field but with the collar on, if he takes off push the nuke button.

 

Good luck.

[grahamfarmer]

brown dog,

 

being a farmer and having a lab gun dog i suspect it because the sheep are use to moving away from a dog and your young dog wants to see what they are . i would try and see if a local friendly farmer would allow you to take your dog into a pen on a lead where the sheep cant run away but if your dog makes any move for the sheep you can sit him on his back with a good sharp pull on the lead so he learns not to chase them and if you could then do that several times until he moves with you to heel whilst off the lead i think you will cure it also useful if you need to pickup and there are sheep about as the dog will not be intrested in them whilst working bit like rabbit pen training expect using sheep.

 

i know of someone you used a collar to stop a similar problem to yours but it cured the dog of sheep chasing but also imprinted on the dog that approaching sheep wasnt allowed and it wont go into a field with sheep in to retrive now.

 

 

dont know how to cure the deer problem but it you want to use it for stalking and tracking wounded deer then you dont really want to discourage tracking a deer scent . unless you can use a clear area and drag a skin to lay a scent and have the dog on a lead again to pull it up if it follows the scent but then use a covered dummie to train it to retrive a deer scent some time in the future.

 

graham.

[huntsman]

Hi Brown dog,

 

Having probably made every mistake in the book myself wth dogs over the years, I feel sorry for you with this one .

But I don't think that there is a quick fix to this serious problem i.e the flick of a switch.

Just under two years ago I bought my first black lab she is probably the best dog I have ever had . We attended weekly gundog training classes and she really excelled( so did I). Then the week before the the first work test the wheels came off, at approx 13 mths old and she seemed to just lose it all . People had been asking if I was going to field trial her and I must have lost the run of myself . I decided to stopped everything switched her off and went back to basic training.I didn't really use her much for the season gone by. Now we will be starting back to classes in a few weeks ,hopefully with a more settled and mature dog.

 

To your credit you really seem to have achieved alot in a very short time. The one take home message or Golden rule ,we got from the instructors ( seasoned field trial men) was;

 

"Don't move on to the next step until you have the last one mastered "!!.

 

Could you have skipped a step or two ? Or are you expecting a bit much from such a young dog?

He cannot be the required 110% steady, so this is where you must go back to . Do so in a controlled enviorment where you are always in control and don't give him his head or the oppertunity or he will take the piss. Gradually build on this,keep him away from the sheep and deer until you have no doubts . Then only on a long lead until you are certain about him.

Remember too he is still very young and its not a race to train him, if you think that much of him it will be worth the extra time .

 

Please understand I don't mean to offend ,I have no idea of your experience, expectations or the time that you have invested already.

 

Good luck

Dave

[brown dog]

To all three of you: Very many thanks.

 

Some excellent tips there. I will try the 'boredom' conditioning. Also hoisted the point on the fully controlled environment. Thanks again.

[tulkyuk]

Hi BD - if you do go down the electronic training collar route, you can not get any better than the PAC collar system. I have used it on(big) black lab and it has made him in to a very good picking up/ rough shooting/beating dog.

I know the system is expensive, but you do really get what you pay for ( same as everything else i suppose)

 

if you want to discuss further then please feel free to ask.

[Redfox]

The real issue is what do you do after the shocking collar? dogs are not stupid and quickly learn that when the collar is not on they can do as they please, so if you go this route it will have to wear the electronic collar the rest of its life!!

Experienced dog trainers dont use them ( here anyway) they establish control of the dog from the beginning and train in a particular order, thereby making sure the dog is not in a position to do the wrong thing and get away with it. They can also quickly learn that you cant run as fast as them, then your really in trouble.

I would spend your money on getting in touch with a professional gundog trainer within a reasonable distance and let him guide you, before the situation becomes unrecoverable ( and it can). He will asses the dog and come up with a plan to cure the problem if possible. The Kennel Club or perhaps better the Labrador Retriever Club can point you at someone who is good and not just a chancer, in your area.

redfox

[Alycidon]

Speak to a friendly farmer and arrange to take him into a lambing shed, shove him into a small pen with just an OLD ewe and her new lambs, she will teach him a lesson or two. Stopped my first Labs interest in sheep instantly, but of course it is a bit high risk as she could break his ribs. Deer of course are different and I could never stop her on a Munti.

 

I did rescue a young German Shepard bitch a few years ago, she instantly prooved to be a sheep worrier though, wanting to play wolf and dinner all the while, once she had bowled her prey over (usually my Lab puppy) she would let it get up and then repeat the excercise. As I live on a farm surrounded by sheep that is a huge no no. I took her into a crowded sheep pen for several hours and she was as good as gold, even nose to nose no reaction at all but as soon as she could slip away she was at them again. I gave her to a work college in the end, having explained that she should never been taken anywhere where she could come into contact with sheep. He lived in a town and had three other GSDs and was well versed with them. Such a shame as she was a really lovelly dog but it was either that or put her down.

 

A

[col48]

Hi

i have had a few of the PAC collars and they are excellent and i could not find a distance where they would not work.

 

I do not use one now as i believe that the problems we encounter in training a dog is down to our own lack of understanding of the specific dog and training tecnic.

 

what you will find with allot of people that train there own dogs is they move on to fast from one stage to the next. and this can cause problems in other areas of the dogs training.

normally you can go back to basics and sort out most problems.

All so what you have to remember is when you are out training your dog is that you normally go to a nice quiet spot to train him. so you have his full attention. and he may perform faultlessly in this type of situation.

then when you go out in to the field you start to get problems. this is when they start to get scent up there nose.and i have found you have to start there training again =, in situations where the dog is excited. and reaffirm the stop command.as the dog is a lot harder to Handel with scent up his nose. And even harder again with sight and scent to get him even more excited.

 

chasing i have heard is / can be passed on by the parents,but i would say is in most dogs as it is there natural way to catch there dinner.

A rabbit pen would be good and a good friendly farmer. so you can reproduce what is happening in the in the field and remedy it in his training.

If you watch your dog you should be able to tell if he is going to chase. as they will start to stare just before they run after the sheep/what ever it is.and he will become a bit transfixed on the pray,his ears will go back slightly,and posture should change slightly. if you can read the sings you can snap him out of it before the reflex to chase.

what i find good is to ether a sharp tug on the lead to one side.(not backwards) this will unbalance him for a split second and snap him out of his trans fixing on his pray. be prepared to repeat this a good few times.

 

or you can jab him between the back legs and the ribs with you fingers. if you get your timing right you may get a yelp out of your dog.this is not a yelp of pain,it is the tension that your dog has before a chase being released.

 

The problem with chasing is it is a deep set problem as they are born with it. so be prepared to have to put lots of corrections in.as well as time. but the sooner you start the better.

 

 

I did hear that if you get a sheep with a lamb and a very very long lead and a very very tight collar, you can walk the dog up to the sheep. the sheep will not run as it has a lamb with it and will be very protective of the lamb.

your dog will go down in to the stalk position as he gets closer.and the sheep will start to thump him foot down.if this does not discourage him then he will try to get closer.this should make the sheep run at the dog and head but him.and possibly chase you and the dog off.

 

ATB

Colin

[sako75]

Hi Brown Dog, E collars are not cruel if used correctly; but the dogs nature needs to be taken into account first; any dog displaying a gentle or slightly shy disposition can and often will be shattered by the incorrect use of them.

 

I have used them over the past few years and as long as you’re very careful as to when and for what reason you shock the dog; they can be very productive and can prevent major problems arising. As to make and model a lot depends of the distance of the transmitter and the ability of the receiver to work in say heavy woodland, I have a 800 meter model that really does work at that distance; the one I bought cost close on to £300.00 for a twin collar unit. Just bear in mind my comments on the dogs disposition.

[sako75]

Hi Brown dog, I deliberately never mentioned the make of E collar I have, as they don’t appear to be available here any longer; but any of the better made ones should work well

 

From the experience I have those being sold for the training of pointers and setters in the USA are probably the one’s to go for if distance training is important to you’re requirements. You might like to check out the collars being used by the Dutch for their police dog training; most sites selling them there are in English, hope that helps.

 

One tip when using an E collar is never let the dog become aware that it’s you that is shocking it! And never rebuke the dog when you have used the collar to correct any problem! It’s very important that the dog never associates you with the shock and discomfort

[casts_by_fly]

BD,

 

It seems a lot more is made out of e-collars in this country than needs to be. There is a major negative stigma to them here that isn't necessary. They aren't evil and they aren't (or at least shouldn't be) abusive. You don't use them to teach a particular thing, you use them to correct a bad behavior. A properly collar conditioned dog has no idea that the stimulation is coming from the collar. It associates the bad action with the stimulation, not the collar. They are a tool much the same way a riding crop or a choke chain is a tool. In fact, I would wager that a properly used e-collar causes less harm than a choke chain and is far more versatile.

 

Personally I own a Sport dog SD400 (standard model). I've not had any problems with it aside from the batteries dying aroudn the 5 year mark. I've replaced the batteries and we're back to good. It holds a charge for a long time (I can get at least 2 full days of hunting on one charge). Most important to me when I bought it, it was small in size. At the time it was far smaller than all of the other collars except one (which I was also considering). Reviews and personal experiences lead me to this one. I would buy another if I needed it. In fact I considered it about a month ago when Cabelas had the Sd1200 model on sale for $100. They might still have some and I would recommend them if they do.

 

That said, when I trained with the retriever groups at home, tri-tronics was a well respected brand and quite a few people used them. The transmitters were a little big for my tastes and they are a bit more expensive.

 

Thanks

Rick

[nell]

Hi folk's can't offer any advice on the use of e collars as i have no personal experience,but can i jump in and ask a question pr two..

 

I live in sheep country and work with them most day's of the year wherever i am in the world and am very used to there awkward ways ..

 

If a dog was chasing sheep,ignoring the stop whistle and command to sit or return at what point would you zap it?

 

Should the dog assotiate the shock with the chase or actually gripping the sheep? or the fact he's ignoring you?

 

I have trained many dogs mostly labs, luckily never had this problem as pups are introduced to sheep at a very early age and they seem to except that sheep are part of the landscape.

 

Deer on the other hand are a different story, if you intend using your dog for deer work as i do,if he does chase a deer you have to turn a blind eye and try to avoid the situation, as it's difficult to chastise the pup for doing somthing he may be called upon to do later in his career.

 

Good luck with your pup brown dog, if he has been trainable up to now you should'nt have to much of a problem, i would go with the advice of let him see plenty as often as possible and keep his attention on some other exciting item, dummy or ball. It's often only when sheep take flight that the game begins, as mentioned nursing ewes are more likely to stand thier ground therefore less attractive.

 

We have heard of putting a pup in a pen with a ewe that beats it up so the pup never looks at another sheep i agree the pup may avoid climbing into a small pen with a sheep,but a sheep running off 200yds away up a field will be a very different story

 

 

 

 

Friendly farmers get mentioned quite a lot, but i think you may find these are few and far between with the lambing season just around the corner, when it comes to strange dogs among thier sheep

 

Nell

[eldon]

BD just beware of the controlled enviroment with a dog and an old sheep in a closed area.

I had a border collie and one day was walking with the farmer where he came from up the field to get a tup (male). We had 2 dogs loose, mine and the farmers sheepdog. We entered an open ended corridor between dry stone walls and for some reason the sheep turned round and nailed my dog to the wall. This resulted in a damaged hip socket. 10 plus years ago it was reset 2 times and eventually needed the bone drilling and a sort of cable tie to hold the joint together (£300).

 

Beware them sheep are wild things.

[casts_by_fly]

Nell,

 

In the situation you described, you would give the dog a command and correct it when it didn't comply. For me, a 'sit' command is the stopping command. If Roxy sees a rabbit and decides to give chase, she's going to get a 'sit' or sit whistle. Compliance is mandatory, so if she doesn't immediately sit she would get a nick on the collar until she complies. Taught properly, the dog knows that sit means sit no matter the distance or any distractions. An e-collar lets you enforce the command at distance much the way a leash does in close.

 

Here/come or heel would work just the same. I just prefer 'sit' because the command itself is unable to be confused with any other command that the dog knows. And, the whistle command is one, long, powerful blow on the whistle. If the command is given, there is no chance that the dog (1) doesn't hear it or (2) doesn't know what I mean. Those are the two prerequisites for using a collar to correct a dog. It must be able to hear you and know exactly what you want it to do. If under those conditions it then doesn't do it, then that is when you would correct the dog.

 

Thanks,

Rick

[brown dog]

All,

 

Really grateful for the advice. I reckon a good dog training book could be written from the knowledge here!

 

 

Made my mind up to get a collar today - the young fellow took off after a hare he put up and wouldn't stop. Ran all 4 corners of a 1km grid square before deciding to return to loveable obedient dog -which he was as soon as he came back!

 

Situation (and how I envisage useage) exactly as per casts by fly last post.

 

I'm going to get a Brit model -had a good look at the various (presumably) chinese models; but I don't want to turn the fellow into a piece of coal the first time I use it (a la chinese "eye-safe" laser " )

[bluebell]

You dont have to use a e collar to have the desired effect - I have done a lot of work with dogs of all sorts that chase.

 

First until you know the dog is reliable NEVER give it an oportunity to chase when you are not training.

 

Second Elwoods advice is good to try it in a confined area on a long lead - doesnt have to be with sheep I have used rabbits or chickens in the past, have the dog on a long lead (or lunge line) and as soon as it goes to chase give the return command and a tug on the lead. Timing is everything you have to anticipate exactly the right moment.

 

If you dont succeed with that there is a thing called an 'abostop' which sprays a substance under the dogs nose, this normally provides a big enough distraction to allow you to call the dog back. Again timing is everything. The beauty of using something scented (normally cirtonella) is that once the dog has learnt you put a little hint of citronella on its normal collar as a reminder for a bit Also it is much more unlikley to have the adverse effects that an e collar can - I have sadly seen good dogs reduced to quivering wrecks through bad timing and over use of e collars.

 

Hope this helps

Jan

[nell]

Rick, i'm with you on the sit, i was told many years ago that a dog sat on his arse is'nt getting in trouble nomatter whats going on around him. I find the assotiation with whistle whistle ZAP hard to take on board i guess i'm lucky i have never felt the need to use one. must admit ive done my fair share of chasing dogs around the countryside to drag them back to where they were told to be

 

I can see that E collars can be an aid to training, but not a means of training...

 

Nell