Forming custom brass

[njc110381]

Hey guys. Now I'm getting more keen on this .17 Ackley Hornet I think I need to get some advice about what I'm getting into. I really have no idea.

 

Firstly, forming the brass. Simply put, you go through a couple of stages of forming. The form die, full length size, fire a very weird looking case in your gun and there you have it, a .17AH case! BUT....A few questions. Brass hardening (I've read about annealing, how do you do that at home if you need to?). Fire forming (how do you know what powder/bullet/load to use?). Is there any special kit I will need over the stuff I'd use to load standard stuff?

 

After that, case life. How often am I going to have to go through this lark to make myself new cases? Can you buy custom brass (I'm a lazy sod once the fun has worn off and I've done it a few times)? How many reloads can you get from your brass once you've bullied it out of shape this much?

 

Load data seems very limited. I'd want to use lil-gun and Midway Dogtown 20grn hollow points. Is this a realistic combination and does the lil-gun keep the pressure down and case life up like it does in the standard Hornet?

 

Then there's barrel life. At 3800 fps that's pretty good velocity for such a tiny pill. How does the barrel fare up? And what about fouling/cleaning?

 

All in all I think it would be great for me. I just have a couple of concerns about getting a little out of my depth with the loading and running of the gun. Am I worrying about nothing?

[1967spud]

you may be not the only one to go this route, good luck and look forward to this thread progressing

[pnse]

pm sent

[Elwood]

I must admit I'm starting to think a lot more about the small .17's to replace my 17HMR and use it as an everyday truck rifle.

 

I'm not knocking the 17HMR, far from it, but now I have gone full circle and bought a .22LR I think the 17HMR will now be redundant.

[casts_by_fly]

I've got one (17 AH) so I should probably pip up with what I know.

 

Case forming is pretty simple. You don't need form dies at all. All you need is a standard 2-die set. Use the seating die with the seater stem removed to form cases. You'll want the rifle before you form cases as you'll have to set the seater to a slight crush fit on the sized case. Once you've sized them, you'll load up some fireform loads and go shooting. Most guys on saubier get as good of accuracy with FF loads as standard loads (and also use the same full house loads). Mine were just ho hum for accuracy, but it was also a brand new barred and a randomly selected load. Mid range book charge of 4198 with a 25 gr HP. I didn't loose a single case when FF. I did buckle a couple when forming them in the die, but one was lack of lube and the other was my own playing around too much.

 

I used H4198 as that's what I had. I also loaded up some with Lil gun to check for max loads. Both sets of loads were in the reasonable realm for my gun compared to other's loads. I would like to get my hands on some VV110 and/or AA1680 as they are the two most recommended powders for the AH and 20 gr loads. However, in the AH you get about 500 rounds per pound so a kilo of VV would last forever and if it doesn't work it is fairly limited in other rounds. AA is just hard to get. So at the moment I think I'm going to concentrate on H4198.

 

You can buy preformed brass, but it isn't advisable. Some people can chamber brass fired in one gun but not another. Since there is no standard, there is no way to know for sure that it will work in your gun. And, it isn't cheap. It is about twice as expensive as standard WW hornet brass. So for me it was a no brainer.

 

Depending on how much you shoot will determine how often you have to make brass. I made 100 and have shot them all once with some twice. I figure to get at least 3-5 loadings from them before things go askew. Some guys get more and some less. If you make a big batch to start, then you don't have to do it again. I haven't been shooting as much in the past 6 months, so the AH has sat in the closet. I also didn't anneal. A lot of guys don't, so I didn't bother. If I get 3-5 loadings and then necks start to split I'm fine with that. I'm not shooting thousands of rounds in a week like some of the PD guys.

 

Barrel life is said to be very long for the AH. You're not using very much powder at all. You're not pushing the pressure limits much. So one barrel will last a long time. Fouling depends on powder. Some say that 110 is very very clean and that 1680 is dirty. I don't know because I haven't shot either.

 

The AH is addictive. If you liek the hornet, the AH is pretty sweet. That said, if you're going to put a moderator on the gun, go with the 17 fireball. Both will have the same crack with a mod and be similar without it. Dies and brass are standard. You can get factory guns chambered for the FB. And, you get a bit more power from it without a whole lot more powder. Around 16-19 grains of powder will push a 20 gr an extra 200-300 fps or you can push 25's as fast as an AH pushes 20's.

 

If your intention is to change the 22 hornet to a 17 hornet, then maybe. I'd have to think long and hard about what you are using it for though before you spend the money. If you're just talking about rabbits and other ground vermin out to 250 yards, then the 22 hornet is plenty capable.

 

Thanks,

Rick

[casts_by_fly]

I just noticed that you bought the one if the classifieds so forget the advice above about the fireball and hornet.

 

Looks like you'll be getting some brass with it. I'd use that to find a load first that the gun likes. Then use that load to FF more brass.

 

Don't expect 3800 from a 20" barrel. 3600 is going to be more likely, maybe 3700, depending on the powder, the chamber cut, and how hard you're pushing it.

 

Thanks

Rick

[Cornishman]

Another thumbs up for the 17AH.

 

I use Vhit N120 in mine (12g and 11.5g in FFloads) and find this clean burning and it goes through a measure well. After a bit of experimentation I now use 17g VMax bullets exclusively as I find these stunningly accurate and at all sensible ranges they fly the same with fireforming and fireformed loads.

 

I also did quite a bit of experimentation with primers. I expected Rem 6 1/2s or pistol primers to work best but I saw a clear accuracy advantage with CCI SR.

 

Brass? Winchester was recommended but I've found Remington better. After 5 loads I anneal and with some batches I'm up to 7 reloads and still not getting splits. That's neck sizing each time except after annealing when I FL resize again.

 

Cornishman

[njc110381]

Rick, I was wondering when you'd chip in! I've heard you talk about the calibre a bit in the past and it seems you US chaps take more interest in wildcat rounds (maybe just because a lot more of you guys shoot)?

 

I'm not too worried about the velocity loss with the shorter barrel. I'd be far more concerned about having to swing a stupidly long rifle around in my truck! For some reason I just haven't mastered it, I get in a right state and by the time I'm sorted my intended target is long gone! I moved over to a Hornet from a HMR and I'm so impressed with it. The calibre even in standard form is a dream to shoot, but I'm always drawn to the tiny little pill of the HMR. Trouble is in HMR form it just isn't quite fast enough to make a big enough adjustment to Foxes. So, .17AH seems to offer all the answers.

 

Cornish, thanks for the load data. Also, where do you get your 17grn bullets from? I thought they were only available stuck in the end of a rimfire case?! How do they work on Foxes? I'm kind of thinking they would be a bit light, but then with 1000fps more velocity they must have a greater effect than the HMR does! The main reasons for going for the AH are safety (I doubt they ricochet often?), flat trajectory and because I want to go one step further than just reloading standard rounds. A big part of my interest in shooting is learning new things. There's just so much I don't know and I'm itching to learn more! Forming a whole new cartridge from another calibre seems like so much fun!

[Cornishman]

B*ll*cks, when I said 17g bullets what I really meant was 20g bullets. Doh!.

 

I've only seen one fox shot with one. This was a head shot at 100 yards and the fox dropped like it was poleaxed.

 

I've done a little bit of ricochet testing shooting at an angled piece of slate in a cardboard box. The bullets shattered and peppered the box so I think these things are pretty ricochet-proof. Another reason why I like the 17AI.

 

Cornishman

[njc110381]

B*ll*cks, when I said 17g bullets what I really meant was 20g bullets. Doh!.

 

 

And there was me thinking this could be a great load. Oh well, never trust what people say on forums

 

I've never tried ricochet testing. I guess if you've got a piece of ground that allows you to provoke the issue then that's very handy. It's good to know how your kit reacts to various ground types. In all fairness my HMR has only ever come back up when I've fired prone on flat ground, and even then only when long shots are taken and (I assume) the velocity isn't high enough to break the bullet up. Maybe I'll give the shooting slate idea a try on one of my hilly patches sometime, it could be interesting. I always wanted to shoot water and see the result but have never had anywhere safe enough to try it unfortunately.

 

I assume a boiler room shot on a Fox with a .17AH will work? I know I've had limited success with my HMR and that's why I stopped using it for that job.

[pnse]

I assume a boiler room shot on a Fox with a .17AH will work? I know I've had limited success with my HMR and that's why I stopped using it for that job.

 

hello neil,yes a chest shot on a fox out to 200yrds will work fine,if you consider that a 17 ackley hornet running at 3700 with a 20 vmax has more energy left a 200yrds than a hmr does at the muzzle,you'll not regret getting a 17 ackley hornet it makes the hmr look like an air gun

atb paul

[casts_by_fly]

there were a few limited batches of 17 gr v-max that were released as blems or seconds. A couple guys on saubier have them. Having seen pictures of the 17 and 20 side by side, I'd stick with the 20. They are tiny enough as it is for reloading. They are a finger pinching pain trying to hold a bullet in place. The boat tails aren't as bad since they will kinda stay in place, but even then you have to be mindful.

 

If you want light bullets, there are some specialty makers with 15 and 18 gr bullets. I think Genco is one, maybe there is another.

 

Thanks,

Rick