Redding Type S Dies

[levelplaying]

I hope someone on here can help out with my relative inexperience with Redding dies.

I was given a sizing, seating die and some once fired ammunition and ready made ammunition some years back with a rifle that I bought. The previous owner used factory GGG ammunition. The dies are .308.

I have yet to load any ammunition for this rifle and calibre. I am okay reloading for another calibre using the Lee and RCBS dies that I have, but have no experience with Redding.

I have read information on line on how to set up the die but have some concerns.

I understand that the resizing die can be used as a full length resizing die. I am not sure how the bushing comes into play. Do you use the die with the bushing to full length resize or do you remove it. Can the die be used just to resize the neck and if so how.

The bushing is stamped. 336 but measuring it with the calipers it is .335

I have measured the outer neck   diameter of the factory ammo and the once fired complete ammo. These are .3365 and .3450 respectively .  A difference of .0015 on the factory ammo and .0100 on the once fired ammo . This seems a large variance.

The once fired brass (before resizing) are on average .3455 which gives a difference of .0105 against the bushing.

It seems to me that having a bushing that is .105 smaller is a big variance. Will this damage the case.

If I want to do a full resize do I need to use the bushing.

Does the bushing just reduce the neck diameter . What does the bushing actually do.

Can the die be used for just resizing the neck.

 

Many Thanks

 

[Popsbengo]

Type S bushing dies size the body and the neck.  The bushing is to size the neck and is selectable.  If we assume the neck thickness is .015' that would be .030' on the diameter.  .308 + .03 = .338;  we want around .002 undersize for neck tension so a .336 bush is just right.   You don't need the button,  if your necks are in good condition I'd remove the button and not bother with it but you then need a de-capping die (Lee and cheap as chips). You do need to retain the lock nut on the rod as this bears on the top of the bushing.

The bush is correct, measuring the inside diameter with calipers is too crude to get an accurate size - trust Redding.

The bushing (assuming Redding) goes in with the numbers downwards,  adjust the decap rod holder to just touch the bush and then back off 1/16 turn, lock the decap rod up.  You should just hear the bush rattle a tiny amount when you shake the die, this is correct to allow the bush to 'float' a few thou.

You can use the die without a bushing to body size.  You buy different bushings in .001 increments to set neck tension.  It's not really possible to do just neck without at least some knock back of the body as you'd only get a portion of the neck sized - others may advise differently.  If you want to neck size get a neck size die and use the same bushings.

I don't quite follow your neck measurement variances  - is this loaded or fired empty cases ?  If fired they will be expanded to whatever your chamber is minus a little spring-back. 

Hope this helps.

 

[levelplaying]

Thanks for your response.

So that I fully understand. A full Redding resize die does neck and body as long as the bush is used, as opposed to just a a neck sizing die that does just the neck.

You mention that you can just use the die to resize. Does that mean the neck doesn't get resized. Is this how other dies work, such as the Lee dies

When you say 'button' do you mean 'bush'.

I have just remeasured the the thickness of the neck and it is more or less 0.015 and see how you determine that the bushing is correct. Thank you for that bit of advice.

[levelplaying]

Sorry Popsbengo. Ignore the question as to the button. Having a moment.

[Popsbengo]

18 minutes ago, levelplaying said:

Thanks for your response.

So that I fully understand. A full Redding resize die does neck and body as long as the bush is used, as opposed to just a a neck sizing die that does just the neck.

You mention that you can just use the die to resize. Does that mean the neck doesn't get resized. Is this how other dies work, such as the Lee dies

When you say 'button' do you mean 'bush'.

I have just remeasured the the thickness of the neck and it is more or less 0.015 and see how you determine that the bushing is correct. Thank you for that bit of advice.

Yes to your first question.

No, I use a bush to size the neck although a second operation to size just the neck could be done with a neck-sizing die

[Laurie]

If you dig into information on the 'Type S' on Redding's website, you'll eventually find a description / instructions.

 

Use of the expander ball / 'button' is optional. Redding advises that when sizing neck-turned brass, the 'button' is omitted and the final neck wall position is set by the bushing diameter alone.

For out of the box brass, the recommendation is to use the die with the expander 'button' installed in conjunction with a bushing diameter that just sees the 'button' kiss the inside neck walls on the return press stroke with that make of case.

The reason for the different approaches is that few out of the box cases have an identical neck thickness at every point. Variations vary depending on both make and production lot. IME experience, measuring recent manufacture 223 Rem or 308 Win Lapua cases out of the box will produce a ~0.002" range form the lowest to highest readings across the entire sample of 30 or 50 cases, and a 3-reading around the neck range of nil or 0.0001" to on or just over one thou' on individual cases. Median thickness will vary around a half thou' across a Lapua 100-ct. box and varies from lot to lot. ie one box may have average values of a shade over 0.014", another lot hovers around 0.015". Differences between makes and time of production can be considerable. Whilst modern 308 Win brass from the three European 'quality' producers is usually 14 to 15 thou', I have some remaining Norma 1980s so-called 160 grain 308s (around 30gn less than normal) with very thin walls, some necks averaging only 12 thou' thickness.

Currently I have recently measured samples from Lapua plus A.N.Other's make of 6.5mm Grendel brass. Lapua is very consistent across the sample, and also within individual cases, all under 1 thou' and 50% or more under a half thou'. The other make has a different (thicker) norm and much larger variations - one case with a range of just under 3 thou' around the neck.

Omitting the expander 'button' and using the bushing alone would probably be fine for the Lapua brass, certainly not for the other make. The reason for Redding's advice to combine bushing and expander is that if case necks have variations, the bushing-size action will produce a near-perfect circular external result, but transfers the case neck-wall variations to the inside surfaces which the bullet then sizes back out into a circular form when seated. Do enough sizing-by-bullet and you get a poor result.

If expansion post-bushing sizing is used, it doesn't have to be with the 'button' in the die. Mandrel expansion after sizing is superior but adds more kit and an additional case preparation task.

The considerable variations between makes of case and even between lots means that if a variety of brass makes and origins is being loaded, different size bushings should be used, especially if the expander 'button' is removed and no other expansion method replaces it. I doubt if GGG brass has the same neck thickness as RWS or Lapua 308 for instance. Never having handled GGG, I've no insight into how consistent its neck thickness is. The bushing size-down and 'button' re-expand is designed to cope with such variations. Unless you are loading very high-precision ammunition for a rifle capable of matching and utilising that precision is another factor.   

[Popsbengo]

11 minutes ago, Laurie said:

If you dig into information on the 'Type S' on Redding's website, you'll eventually find a description / instructions.

 

Use of the expander ball / 'button' is optional. Redding advises that when sizing neck-turned brass, the 'button' is omitted and the final neck wall position is set by the bushing diameter alone.

For out of the box brass, the recommendation is to use the die with the expander 'button' installed in conjunction with a bushing diameter that just sees the 'button' kiss the inside neck walls on the return press stroke with that make of case.

The reason for the different approaches is that few out of the box cases have an identical neck thickness at every point. Variations vary depending on both make and production lot. IME experience, measuring recent manufacture 223 Rem or 308 Win Lapua cases out of the box will produce a ~0.002" range form the lowest to highest readings across the entire sample of 30 or 50 cases, and a 3-reading around the neck range of nil or 0.0001" to on or just over one thou' on individual cases. Median thickness will vary around a half thou' across a Lapua 100-ct. box and varies from lot to lot. ie one box may have average values of a shade over 0.014", another lot hovers around 0.015". Differences between makes and time of production can be considerable. Whilst modern 308 Win brass from the three European 'quality' producers is usually 14 to 15 thou', I have some remaining Norma 1980s so-called 160 grain 308s (around 30gn less than normal) with very thin walls, some necks averaging only 12 thou' thickness.

Currently I have recently measured samples from Lapua plus A.N.Other's make of 6.5mm Grendel brass. Lapua is very consistent across the sample, and also within individual cases, all under 1 thou' and 50% or more under a half thou'. The other make has a different (thicker) norm and much larger variations - one case with a range of just under 3 thou' around the neck.

Omitting the expander 'button' and using the bushing alone would probably be fine for the Lapua brass, certainly not for the other make. The reason for Redding's advice to combine bushing and expander is that if case necks have variations, the bushing-size action will produce a near-perfect circular external result, but transfers the case neck-wall variations to the inside surfaces which the bullet then sizes back out into a circular form when seated. Do enough sizing-by-bullet and you get a poor result.

If expansion post-bushing sizing is used, it doesn't have to be with the 'button' in the die. Mandrel expansion after sizing is superior but adds more kit and an additional case preparation task.

The considerable variations between makes of case and even between lots means that if a variety of brass makes and origins is being loaded, different size bushings should be used, especially if the expander 'button' is removed and no other expansion method replaces it. I doubt if GGG brass has the same neck thickness as RWS or Lapua 308 for instance. Never having handled GGG, I've no insight into how consistent its neck thickness is. The bushing size-down and 'button' re-expand is designed to cope with such variations. Unless you are loading very high-precision ammunition for a rifle capable of matching and utilising that precision is another factor.   

sound advice, I must admit to only considering Lapua brass.

[jcampbellsmith]

https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

Regards

JCS