night vision

[bramble basher]

hi all

a mate of mine is looking for some advice he's in the market for a night vision scope firstly to go on a 17hmr then possibly something with a bit more legs would like to keep the day scope on the rifle just wondering whats on the market how much availibity, ease of use' anyone who has scopes for demonstration

thanks in advance simon

[Elwood]

What's his budget? bottom end Gen 1 starts at about £300 top end Gen 3 goes for around £2500.

 

If he wants to use his day scope then obviously he needs an add on, either a front end unit PS-22 (new and the jury is still out because of possible zero shift) or back end units that you then have to be a contortionist to use.

I'm in favour of dedicated units myself, but magnification is limited to 6x, some of the add on units can be used up to 10x, but he will need a laser illuminator to achieve any kind of clarity, there are many points both good and bad for either set up.

 

As I say, his budget will decide for him, all I can say is buy the best he can afford, even if it means waiting another six months.

 

Hopefully Clive Ward will read this, he can give you much better technical advice than I can.

[eldon]

A friend has a Kite sight and he reckons it's the dogs danglies.

A compromise will always be a compromise a stand alone unit may be better.

 

As Elwood said what is the budget?

What is the Range of use both distance and animal ?

[CliveWard]

hi all

a mate of mine is looking for some advice he's in the market for a night vision scope firstly to go on a 17hmr then possibly something with a bit more legs would like to keep the day scope on the rifle just wondering whats on the market how much availibity, ease of use' anyone who has scopes for demonstration

thanks in advance simon

 

Hi Simon,

 

Just so we're clear my company that's been involved in this for 6 years now is pretty mutch only involved with rifle mounted night vision. Thats all we do. We don't get involved in anything else like wildlife watching, tom peeping, security observation, etc. Just putting bullets where you want them in the dark.

 

Knowing this you can either take the following as good advice or marketing BS

 

I would advise against going with anything that adds to your day scope.

 

The problems with front mounts are that they rely on the repeatability of the mounting system to retain zero. They also have the inherrent problem of an image tube not having exactly a direct transfer. In the USA the UNS has a patent for overcoming this problem and I imagine the Hendsolt has another system to overcome this. The very best repeatability on any of these systems though is 1MOA using a full length picatinny rail. If you want to just clip it onto the objective of the scope, forget it, it will never hold zero or even have the same POI each time you take it on and off. The reason is twofold, 1. the weight of the unit on the scope will deflect the scope and move the POI, cheaper the scope, the more it will move & 2. the optical path through the unit will never be exactly in line with that of the day scope so POI will suffer again. The slightest misalignment will throw it off many minutes!

 

The next problem is resolution, even with a really great tube that's 60lp/mm you are magnifying the output from a scene viewed at 1x so you very quickly reach the limits of the tube in terms of detail. The front add ons that are readily available at the moment have 45lp/mm at very best tubes in them.

 

The problems with rear mounts are mainly they take up all of the day scopes eye relief and then some so it's very uncomfortable. They also need a lot of IR illumination and here lies a big problem in that with a rear add on the tube only receives light for 60-80% of it's useful diameter so the ABC doesn't work correctly and you can in very short time burn the centre of the tube out.

 

The biggest drawback of both systems is they have a narrow field of view which is limited by the day scope. Also the ranges are limited to 200 yards max. With the front mount you can see further but it's indistinct, with the rear mount thats as far as you can see. These 2 factors make them unsafe to use on a centre fire rifle because you need to see your target and a good margin behind it and to the side.

 

Believe me if add ons were any good we'd sell them. We only advertise them so customers who think they want one will get in touch and be educated.

 

There are other products on the market, but from my point of view; if your friend called me I would hive him the following advice:

 

The scope you need is our SM3S2 dedicated 6x NV rifle scope with the 60lp/mm+ HG tube fitted. This is the smallest and lightest 6x dedicated NV scope on the market. This will allow you a very wide field of view, the ability to see all the way to the horizon to make sure your backdrop is safe, easily identify foxes at 400 yards and rabbits at 300, fine reticle, 1/2MOA adjustments on the turrets and very good depth of field so you don't need to spend time on every shot fannying with the focus. I actually advise customers to focus the scope at their zero range and then never touch it again it helps with rangefinding because the DOF usually follows the point blank zero so if you can identify the target you just shoot it without worrying about holds.

 

If you want to use the rifle during the day then just take off the night scope which comes fitted with an accurate QR mount system and put on your dayscope using the same system. We recommend the Leupold QRW rings.

 

You then get the very best of both worlds with no compromise and no appreciable zero shift.

 

Sorry to ramble on...lol.

 

If you want a demo, drop me an e-mail.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Clive

[Elwood]

SM3S2 dedicated 6x NV rifle scope with the 60lp/mm+ HG tube fitted

 

I looked through one of these and can state that for the money this is one of the best if not the best dedicated unit going.

 

Both myself and Clive own better units, but probably at double the price.

 

As Eldon says, the Kite is a fantastic unit, but in my opinion a bit dated now and it wasn't designed to do what we want to use it for. The Kite itself is a 4 x and the maxi Kite is 6 x, the Maxi is enormous! I had one for several years. The reticle is an inverted chevron, which although works it's not designed for shooting small targets. The elevation and windage are both 1 inch @100 yards as opposed to most NV units having 1/4 inch values and lastly I'm told that there has been an ongoing problem with Kites of reticle shift when focusing, I never experienced it but was told about it from someone in the know.

[eldon]

I would also add, my friend paid nearly £2000 (his wife doesn't know) secondhand for the kite with no guarantee or warranty.

 

If I was wanting one of these and lets be honest they are a lot of money then the above option would be considered if only for the back up

 

Come back with more info of intended use/budget and you may get other suggestions but don't say top quality and cheap price in the same sentence

[menial 1]

I enjoyed my Kite immensely, and shot a lot of fox and rabbits with it. The biggest problem was determining range, quite difficult with night viz unless you know your ground very well. A lot of practice on bunnies helped, only suitable for point and squirt rifles out to about 250yds with 4x, I ran mine on .243 with 70grn Blitzkings so didn't require a great deal of holdover to 250yds. I gave £1900 for mine and got the same when I sold to a keeper pal from a wild bird shoot who uses it for a spotter and runs a Longbow day/night combo on his rifle, over £5500 for the Longbow .

I've seen a few long term lamping teams dissolve after one of the team has used NV and the others just get bored sitting in the dark.

Had a chat with the headkeeper and deciced that our foxing was as much a social occassion as work so now I only have one piece of NV kit left to spot educated animals prior to lighting them up for a shot. For what it's worth the Kite, at the time, was one of the few NV scopes I looked through that didn't require extra illumination to be effective.

Whatever your mate decides to go for, he will benefit from tons of practice or be prepared for dissapointments. Just my take on the NV thing.

Good luck to your mate, he is now entering a very expensive minefield.

Pete.

[bramble basher]

thanks for all the replies chaps sorry not much info it was one of those off the cuff questions just before we went out the door lamping will get him to speak to Clive and hopefully get educated as i know diddly squat about nv

cheers simon

p.s could somebody pm some contact details for clive ward

[CliveWard]

thanks for all the replies chaps sorry not much info it was one of those off the cuff questions just before we went out the door lamping will get him to speak to Clive and hopefully get educated as i know diddly squat about nv

cheers simon

p.s could somebody pm some contact details for clive ward

 

Hi Simon,

 

All the contact details are on the site at www.nvscopes.com

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Clive

[bob64]

thanks for all the replies chaps sorry not much info it was one of those off the cuff questions just before we went out the door lamping will get him to speak to Clive and hopefully get educated as i know diddly squat about nv

cheers simon

p.s could somebody pm some contact details for clive ward

hi, i have one of clive wards day/night vision rifle scopes SM-3S2 D/N only 18months old only used

4 times might sell , get your friend to p/m .

bob64