25+ Red deer shot in one go.....

[Guest Tiff]

Had a very interesting conversation with the farmer today on one of my shoots in mid Devon on why the deer are no longer around. I should add he is a relative of my stalking partner and does not make this sought of thing up.

 

Sometime between late 2007 and summer 2008, on one farm further up the valley between 5-8 people shot over 25 Reds (possibly as many as 40) in a single field in one go.

Along the valley further, various 'guides' during the summer have been taking paying clients out and shooting all the Stags. It is around the same region that the white red 'Heart' was shot this year.

 

The herd had been one of the biggest south of Exmoor (over 80), but is now reduced to a couple of dozen at best; these are all split up into pockets of 2-5. I've yet to see a stag this year!

While I don't have a problem with a managed control of the deer, I'm disgusted at this apparent slaughter and the continued persecution of the stags for money.

 

It got so bad that during the late rut only two stags were roaring - where normally 30-50 could be heard. The farmer is happy for us not to shoot any, to help increase the numbers.

 

So what do you think on this and is there any way of prevent the herd from becoming extinct.

[irishgun]

Had a very interesting conversation with the farmer today on one of my shoots in mid Devon on why the deer are no longer around. I should add he is a relative of my stalking partner and does not make this sought of thing up.

 

Sometime between late 2007 and summer 2008, on one farm further up the valley between 5-8 people shot over 25 Reds (possibly as many as 40) in a single field in one go.

Along the valley further, various 'guides' during the summer have been taking paying clients out and shooting all the Stags. It is around the same region that the white red 'Heart' was shot this year.

 

The herd had been one of the biggest south of Exmoor (over 80), but is now reduced to a couple of dozen at best; these are all split up into pockets of 2-5. I've yet to see a stag this year!

While I don't have a problem with a managed control of the deer, I'm disgusted at this apparent slaughter and the continued persecution of the stags for money.

 

It got so bad that during the late rut only two stags were roaring - where normally 30-50 could be heard. The farmer is happy for us not to shoot any, to help increase the numbers.

 

So what do you think on this and is there any way of prevent the heard from becoming extinct.

sorry to hear that tiff, greed ,money .donegal in the west is a bit like that now with the reds .guide s are raping it quick buck ,with no tommra . some of the guys getting into stalking now have no concept of whats involved more is the pity

[Alycidon]

That is simply disgracefull.

 

A very unpleasant incident that is manna from heaven to the anti's if they ever get wind of it.

 

One has to ask, WHY ??. That is not deer management.

 

"It is not our wildlife to do with it as we please but we are entrusted with it for future generations.", never were words more truly spoken.

 

A

[eldon]

Sorry to hear that Tiff that has to be pure greed either for the money or the sport.

As said no thought for tomorrow.

 

What do you mean by the white red heart?

[kip270]

Sorry to hear that Tiff that has to be pure greed either for the money or the sport.

As said no thought for tomorrow.

 

What do you mean by the white red heart?

 

 

It was in the news and shooting press, that a rare White Red Stag was shot last year, or the year before...

[provider]

Thats not good, sad to think people can wipe out a whole herd just for the mighty pound.

These so called "guides" should be named and shamed in the area so everyone knows what they are up to and can put a stop to it before its too late if its not already.

 

Prov.

[JC275]

Whilst I do not dispute the facts that Tiff has given us, I think that it would be wise not to critisise too loudly. I was not there, I didn't see what went on so I won't judge. Mention is made of 'Guides' allowing clients to shoot all the stags in the summer. My stags are all in velvet in the summer and I would have a hard time finding clients to shoot them when they are not in hard antler. I sometimes look in on another deer forum site just for entertainment as they spend all day running each other down and mostly talking rubbish, lets not go that way here. Best wishes, JC

[Alycidon]

Fair comment.

 

A

[Guest Tiff]

Hi Eldon as explained above - a Hart or (newer spelling) Heart is a Red Stag. White Hearts have often been considered mythical in places - where the unicorn myth is believed to have originated - hence why so many pubs are called the White Hart.

 

JC275 that is a fair comment and I'm not one to 'slag' people off and will not give a location or give names. However it is fast becoming a problem down here - an area that is new to widespread 'commercial' shooting. The stags here come out of velvet normally in August and can be 10-20% bigger than most others in the UK, in this heard 3 were 14 pointers and several around 10-12 points. However unlike other parts of the country, in Devon and Cornwall most 'guides' only have one or two farms together (not continual 1000's of acre's). As such in this valley there are 3-5 people known to be taking people out now, all wanting to get a shot as they migrate along it during there 7-10 mile cycle through the day between two big woods. Even if each only takes one a week in the season they soon add up! Hence not having seen a single stag in a long time.

 

Going back to the original post, are there any ways of preventing it being destroyed for good? I know some of the 'guides' through the local pubs etc and they really don't give a dam. Its a sad state and I am only young, but would hate to look back in 30 years and think what could have been prevented.

[eldon]

Cheers Kip and Tiff, obviously this one past me by.

 

After your comments I did a quick search and found this,

 

http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/leucistic-stag729.html

 

According to this it was poachers to blame presuming this was the same one.

 

Apparently the one in cornwall was shot around October 2007.

[baldie]

This didn,t happen before the hunting ban did it ? OK, we all know no one gives a toss about the ban, but the staghound packs are persecuted relentlessly by the ###### squads, and cannot operate anything like what they used to. Deer were tolerated on most farms, because the farmers liked to hunt, and the packs managed the herds very well indeed. No hunting as such now, so no need for the farmers to put up with deer damage any more. Not the entire reason, i know, but part of the problem.

[irishgun]

Cheers Kip and Tiff, obviously this one past me by.

 

After your comments I did a quick search and found this,

 

http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/leucistic-stag729.html

 

According to this it was poachers to blame presuming this was the same one.

 

Apparently the one in cornwall was shot around October 2007.

sorry to change the thread we have a white sika hind in the wicklow national park and i have seen a sika hind with a white face

[eldon]

Apparently the one in cornwall was shot around October 2007.

 

Maybe I should have said killed as I don't know how it died?

[Guest deer308]

hi tiff,

 

i am sorry to say that i have met to many people who just want to say how many deer they have shot and not to mention the stalk at all , this may go against the grain but may be the uk should fetch in the same test as the germans , what do you think ?????

[IanF]

Tiff

 

Your herd is buggered!

 

Stag numbers and quality will decrease until commercial stalking is not worthwhile - at that point your neighbouring hunters may well depart to rape another area. Not until this happens will the herd have opportunity to regain its previous glory.

 

Those big boys take a few years to get that way - so don't anticipate much other than the odd wanderer appearing on the ground.

 

Sorry bud.

 

Rgds Ian

[menial 1]

hi tiff,

 

i am sorry to say that i have met to many people who just want to say how many deer they have shot and not to mention the stalk at all , this may go against the grain but may be the uk should fetch in the same test as the germans , what do you think ?????

 

No !we already have enough restrictions on firearms in the UK, don't punish the majority over the selfish actions of a few. Remember handguns and slr's, the government could implement incredibly expensive and long winded training and testing that most coud not accomodate or afford, which would suit them down to the ground by reducing the number of firearms in use by law abiding shooters who have already jumped through sufficient hoops to have what we've got at the moment.

Pete.

[Guest Tiff]

Tiff

 

Your herd is buggered!

 

Hi Ian, I didn't know you were on here.........

 

I think you've unfortunately summed it all up in the statement above. Thinking now the demise of the Staghounds probably has a lot to do with it.

 

As to the other posts on any more restrictions, I really don't think that will help.....

 

Ian knows my views on the BDS fairly well....and before shooting I wouldn't agree with being forced to do such a useful expensive course and tough shooting test ! (Sorry couldn't resist )

[dogfox]

Shooting test will not stop this sort of action. Why do you think the Europeans come to this country for? It is the quality heads that is what.

 

What on my travels in to Germany and Belgium I have only seen a few good heads on the walls and the good ones I have seen are from this country.

 

This is what happens when an urban government who has no idea what happens in the countryside starts interfering with what go on.

 

When the stag hunting was going on they hunted over a large area and the farmers left the deer alone for the hunt. Now you have small areas being shot for money and the deer are being hit from one area to another.

 

What will happen is the government will set up organization for the deer with people who have not got a clue what to do and F%$K up the deer all together.

 

I do not need a shooting test to help me shoot deer.

 

Dogfox

[menial 1]

There is already an organisation that claims to act on the governments behalf that is interfering and poaching peoples stalking. They call themselves the Deer Initiative. They have a nasty technique of going behind the existing stalker's back by going directly to the landowner, they then claim they would like to assist the stalker with the cull, and when this approach fails they offer over and above the present fees to take the stalking. This outfit was set up in 2000 or 2001 iirc and claim to be a government sanctioned body, which they have appointed themselves. They are to be treated with the same suspicion and contempt as the true stalkers worst enemy, the BDS. These people want to run everything involving the management of deer and consider all others to have no understanding of what it takes to get the job done. Be very aware they want your stalking or at the very least tell you how you'll go about it, involve yourself or support these organisations at your peril. Solo stalkers are particularly prone to this backdoor grabbing.

While I'm getting things off my chest, with luck people will soon see through BASC, another cowtowing, lily livered outfit, that will concede to almost anything the Home Office suggests. This shower would love to see shooting tests become mandatory as they could then charge what they like as they do with DSC1 and other rifle related courses. This has become an enormously top heavy organisation with a great many social climbing hangers on all paid for courtesy of the membership. I changed to the NGO some years ago because I no longer believed that BASC was taking us down the right road.

If I've offended anybody with this post I apologise in advance, but the fact remains I'm not alone in my findings, you have been warned, these organisations will eventually sell the ordinary shooter down the river to achieve their own misguided ends.

Pete.

[sam f]

Tiff, i know what you mean. I live in Dorset but travel to that part of Devon to see my 2 keeper friends on an estate there. They dont tend to shoot any big stags but a few hinds and prickets. They have noticed a big decrease in the number of stags and now hear very little roaring during the rut.

I've shot a few prickets down there and seen a big 12 pointer, but as he's now crossed the tamar onto somone else ground his head is now on someones wall i should think.

[devilishdave]

There is already an organisation that claims to act on the governments behalf that is interfering and poaching peoples stalking. They call themselves the Deer Initiative. They have a nasty technique of going behind the existing stalker's back by going directly to the landowner, they then claim they would like to assist the stalker with the cull, and when this approach fails they offer over and above the present fees to take the stalking. This outfit was set up in 2000 or 2001 iirc and claim to be a government sanctioned body, which they have appointed themselves. They are to be treated with the same suspicion and contempt as the true stalkers worst enemy, the BDS. These people want to run everything involving the management of deer and consider all others to have no understanding of what it takes to get the job done. Be very aware they want your stalking or at the very least tell you how you'll go about it, involve yourself or support these organisations at your peril. Solo stalkers are particularly prone to this backdoor grabbing.

While I'm getting things off my chest, with luck people will soon see through BASC, another cowtowing, lily livered outfit, that will concede to almost anything the Home Office suggests. This shower would love to see shooting tests become mandatory as they could then charge what they like as they do with DSC1 and other rifle related courses. This has become an enormously top heavy organisation with a great many social climbing hangers on all paid for courtesy of the membership. I changed to the NGO some years ago because I no longer believed that BASC was taking us down the right road.

If I've offended anybody with this post I apologise in advance, but the fact remains I'm not alone in my findings, you have been warned, these organisations will eventually sell the ordinary shooter down the river to achieve their own misguided ends.

Pete.

 

I hear what you are saying ref these organisations selling us down the river. I have had to do DSC to shoot over the land where I stalk but I can see the benefit this would have to some townie getting in to stalking. The negative PR that would go with a beginner with little experience or knowledge getting it catastrophically wrong in the public eye could be disastrous. This is slightly less likely to happen to some one who has done DSC and is applying what they have been trained in. If some one has done the course and gets it wrong then they are negligent!!

 

Dave

[Andrew]

Here we have very narrow seasons for big game: generally September though January and game tags for each animal must be purchased individually. Only so many tags based on area population; first come, first serve. That kind of kill would never have happened (if indeed it did happen as stated) here. Not saying our system is better, but it does have safeguards. Of course, we also have the Game officers and the resulting bureaucracy which is paid for through license fees.~Andrew

[menial 1]

I hear what you are saying ref these organisations selling us down the river. I have had to do DSC to shoot over the land where I stalk but I can see the benefit this would have to some townie getting in to stalking. The negative PR that would go with a beginner with little experience or knowledge getting it catastrophically wrong in the public eye could be disastrous. This is slightly less likely to happen to some one who has done DSC and is applying what they have been trained in. If some one has done the course and gets it wrong then they are negligent!!

 

Dave

 

I'm afraid buck fever affects DSC trained people as well as others. I was asked to take a chap out who had passed his DSC1 to shoot muntjac, he was polite and admitted he'd not shot deer before. We watched the edge of the wood for around 20mins and a young buck muntie appeared about 80yds from us, I asked him if he was ready, yes he replied, so whistled the muntie to stop, the shot goes off, there is a deep plop sound and the chap asks me if he got it, I said yes but it was customary to shoot them nearer the sharp end. I told him to make sure he had another round chambered and the safety on so we could go and despatch the muntie which was gut shot and not yet dead. We got to about 10yds from the muntie and it was bawling loudly, I asked him what he would like to do to finish the job. He handed me his rifle and asked me to shoot it as this wasn't how he thought his first stalk would end.

I shot the muntie and when I looked back to the chap he was shaking his head and said that would be the last deer he would ever shoot as he hadn't considered there might be a need to follow up at close quarters after taking the initial shot. He asked me if this happened often when stalking, thankfully not I told him, but most stalkers would admit to the occasional cock up resulting in a wounded animal. I've been out with a couple since that you would call occasional shots, maybe only stalk once or twice a year, one shot a roebuck in the nutbag when going for head shot from behind, the other shot a muntie in the arse from a prone position off a bipod.

Nowadays I'm very reluctant to go out with anybody that I haven't seen shoot live quarry successfully whether they're DSC trained or not.

Seem people seem to think because they've passed a course which gives them an insight into stalking it makes them qualified to call themselves stalkers,

I've been at it a long time and there isn't many outings where I don't get a bit of a lesson from the deer.

Nothing wrong with courses, but they are only training and don't qualify the candidates as anything other than having passed a test in my honest opinion.

No disrespect to those that have taken the time, money and effort to pass these courses is intended by my post.

p.s apolgies for the long winded thread hijack.

Pete.

[sikastag]

I'm afraid buck fever affects DSC trained people as well as others. I was asked to take a chap out who had passed his DSC1 to shoot muntjac, he was polite and admitted he'd not shot deer before. We watched the edge of the wood for around 20mins and a young buck muntie appeared about 80yds from us, I asked him if he was ready, yes he replied, so whistled the muntie to stop, the shot goes off, there is a deep plop sound and the chap asks me if he got it, I said yes but it was customary to shoot them nearer the sharp end. I told him to make sure he had another round chambered and the safety on so we could go and despatch the muntie which was gut shot and not yet dead. We got to about 10yds from the muntie and it was bawling loudly, I asked him what he would like to do to finish the job. He handed me his rifle and asked me to shoot it as this wasn't how he thought his first stalk would end.

I shot the muntie and when I looked back to the chap he was shaking his head and said that would be the last deer he would ever shoot as he hadn't considered there might be a need to follow up at close quarters after taking the initial shot. He asked me if this happened often when stalking, thankfully not I told him, but most stalkers would admit to the occasional cock up resulting in a wounded animal. I've been out with a couple since that you would call occasional shots, maybe only stalk once or twice a year, one shot a roebuck in the nutbag when going for head shot from behind, the other shot a muntie in the arse from a prone position off a bipod.

Nowadays I'm very reluctant to go out with anybody that I haven't seen shoot live quarry successfully whether they're DSC trained or not.

Seem people seem to think because they've passed a course which gives them an insight into stalking it makes them qualified to call themselves stalkers,

I've been at it a long time and there isn't many outings where I don't get a bit of a lesson from the deer.

Nothing wrong with courses, but they are only training and don't qualify the candidates as anything other than having passed a test in my honest opinion.

No disrespect to those that have taken the time, money and effort to pass these courses is intended by my post.

p.s apolgies for the long winded thread hijack.

Pete.

Here Here, very sound reasoning from another who has obviouslybeen there and done it. Perhaps without the DVD'S and study guides but as the Government now agrees , there's nothing like on the job experience!