Advice please.....

[Scotch_egg]

Gents every year I visit the hebrides for a foray into some bunny bashing. Ranges vary from your easilly reached .22lr 50-60 yrd shots out too 600 yds. In recent years I have stuck with my 10/22 and for a spot of fun used my standard tikka t3 in .223 firing cheap and cheerfull american eagle ammo out to a max 330yrds.

 

Now last year my father purchased a .17hmr, what a great little round that turned out to be. I was amazed at its impact up to 200 yds.

 

Now comes my quandry, I have done a little research into the above calibre's. I have just about worked out that after initial set up costs they will be cheaper to run than .17hmr which is currently around £24 per 100 and i'll be reloading at £20 per 100. Plus I can shoot at far greater velocities if using the .17AH.

 

I am in the lucky position of owning a thomson/centre encore so all I need is a barrel if sticking with a centre fire hence my inquiry into these sub calibre's.

 

What if any advantage over the standard .22 Hornet will I achieve with a .22 K-Hornet and what over both of those will I achieve by using the .17AH.

 

As a low ball I may use the calibre as a nice quiet fox round on some ground I have 6 miles from leicester city centre that also holds a very very small number of muntjac, would the .22 hornet be legal now the .22 centre fire has been included for the two smaller species.

 

I hope this topic has not been covered before, I have tried seasrching and found a few fans of the .17AH but not much in comparison.

 

Kind regards

 

David

[AHPP]

As far as small deer (Muntjac and CWD) go you need to use a minimum of 50 grain bullet to generate a minimum of 1000 ft/lbs at the muzzle. I believe the consensus is that Hornet just doesn't have the ooomph for it.

[Alycidon]

For rabbits the 17AH is a good way to go, not sure if it is still here but 6PPC had one built by Callum on a CZ action, there is a video of it somewhere here, very quiet.

 

Second choice from your list would be K Hornet, more case capacity.

 

But , another option to consider might be a 20 Ackley Hornet, dies etc would be a bit special but you could shift a 33gr Vmax at 3,300 fps using only about 13 grains of powder. Should be good for 250 yards.

 

Only thing I might worry about is wind, I suspect the Hebradies has a brisk wind and these little 17s do get blown around. You might want to have a play with ballistics programmes to see how much but all are better bets IMHO than 17HMR.

 

For me it would be a 20, either the AH or a Vartarg which is based on a Fireball case.

 

A.

[Andrew]

I have owned all three but have settled on the Hornet. The "K" is a good round and if it was a factory offering I'd own another one. The 17AH is Ok but a nuisance to get dies for and fire form VS shooting the standard Hornet.

 

I do like the standard Hornet and shoot about a thousand prairiedogs a year out to 250 yards. With a 33 grain V-Max bullet I can clip 3260 fps on 11.5 grains of H-110 or Winchester 296. My load of choice is Hodgdon's "Lil Gun" which is low pressure, high velocity powder. The brass lasts forever: I'm currently getting about 10 loads on my brass before the neck work hardens. I am loading Midway's "Dogtown" 34 grain HP now to just over 3000 fps and getting the occasional 3-shot group down in the .2" range from my CZ. I can't ask for more.~Andrew

[Cornishman]

I went through a very similar thought process about a year ago and finished up with a 17AH. For me the major pros and cons were:

 

Hornet - old-fashioned fragile case, not a reputation for accuracy. But, in the US, Hornet shooters report excellent accuracy with current Cz rifles and homeloads with 'Lil Gun powder. Cheap rifle to buy and load for.

 

17AH - based on the horrible Hornet brass, requires expensive case-forming dies and the brass needs to be fireformed. Any rifle would have to be custom made and that means expensive. Some difficulties getting the improved case to feed through magazines (OK in Anschutz rifles but Cz mags need modification). On the positive side experience shows it's quiet, amazingly accurate, cheap to load for, has almost no recoil and is enough for foxes without being way too much on rabbits. Low risk of ricochet.

 

K-Hornet (or Ackley Improved). Most of the weaknesses of the standard Hornet although brass lasts longer and you can squeeze out more performance. Strictly a handloaders proposition and you'll need to have a custom gun built.

 

17 Fireball/Mach IV - this is now a legitimised factory cartridge but was still a wildcat when I was looking which meant that I'd have had to go with a custom build. Cz make a rifle in the parent cartridge (221 Fireball) based on their lovely (well, I think so) mini-Mauser action and I was strongly tempted. However the source of quality brass was uncertain and I didn't need the extra horsepower this cartridge would give me.

 

I think anyone getting into this area of shooting needs to understand that their custom rifle won't have much resale value unless you're lucky in finding another enthusiast. Personally I love my 17AH based on a CZ rifle. It's the one I always reach for these days. Todd Kindler at the Woodchuck Den publishes two books giving full details of these and other rival cartridges.

 

Cornishman

[pnse]

another vote for the 17 ackley hornet,this round is everything you'll need on rabbits out to 250 yards plus and will have no problems putting charly down out to about 200 yards,every time i use mine I'm amazed how effective it is for such a small case.

atb Paul

[Andrew]

I'll go along with the last two comments. You must be an enthusiast to want to wildcat one of the Hornet cases. It will cost you some serious coinage and keep you spending it. You also need to be privy to slightly advanced handloading techniques. (Not a huge one, but an issue)

 

I didn't mention the 17 Mach IV/ Fireball but have had experience with the MachIV. It is a real fine cartridge. I built my first one in 1981, back when you could only get one bullet weight and only two powders were really suitable. I loved it but sold it off after a few years and a couple of new mouths to feed. A buddy of mine currently shoots the MachIV so I have gotten a taste of the versatility that has sprung from new bullets and powders; it's really grown as a cartridge. If you want a 17 it's a good choice. If you want a .224 then the Fireball is a good one tho I confess to have only owned it in a Remington XP-100 handgun. It was an MOA screamer. From a rifle it would be a ver versatile cartridge.~Andrew

[Scotch_egg]

Thanks for the advice so far, sounds like this is not going to be as simple as I first hoped.

 

I really like the low noise of the .17AH but I am no expert reloader. I currently load fort my 7-08 and .243, nothing special required. Its my main worry with this round. Also the wind is a bugger in the hebrides, my father copes rather well with his hmr but it can be frustrating.

 

Andrew, you have got me interested in the standard hornet but your comment about the k-hornet has got my attention. How much more work is the case prep for the k?

 

.20 hornet, I can't find any info on this roud at the minute but will keep looking. This could have potential.

 

The .17 machIV sounds like a real contender, but like cornishman I don't think I need that extra 00mph and its nearly double the powder.

 

Please remember I will only be geting a barrel because I am shooting a single shot thomson centre Encore, so I am not worried about resale. This site has taught me that barrels are disposable items.......

 

David

[varminter.223]

David,

 

My friend shoots a 17AH and its a cracking little round. Its highly effective out to 250 yds and hes taken quarry at 300yds with it occasionally. We both have had foxes with it at 200 yds and they just drop! Its cheap to reload and you can a gizillion reloads from a tub of powder . You are limited to 20gn bullets but with a faster twist barrel (1:9)you may have luck with 25 grain bullets (although your velocity will drop). Forming dies are not necessary as most forming can be done with a FLS die. Im currently running in a 17 MACH IV and its a fun round too although it does burn more powder than the 17AH but you get a choice of bullets from 20 -30 gn. which adds to the wind cheating factor.

 

A slightly heavier bullet might be more beneficial for your particular use. PNSE, Andrew and Cornishman all have very valid points. Look at the ballistics of each round, cost of dies, bullets brass availability etc

 

If you decide to go the 17 route we are just down the road from you in Nottingham and can show you the ropes if you like.

 

ATB

 

Pete

[Andrew]

David: The 22 K-Hornet isn't a real chore to reload for but you need expensive dies and you must take great care in fireforming brass. I have heard it argued that the rimmed brass is actually easier to fire form but after losing rimmed cases in various wildcats I believe that they should be headspaced like a rimless round with the bullet snugged against the rifling. If you have the wrong gun; one that has a generous throat, that becomes impossible. As K's are generally made by rechambering an existing barrel you are stuck with what you have. Ballistically speaking you start hedging the .221 Fire ball when you have a K-Hornet. Maybe I'm old but if I want that kind of performance, I'm going to a standard cartridge and brass! Which is why I shoot the Hornet, .222, and .223 for the most part. I just worry about developing an accurate load without the headache of dealing with a wildcat.

 

If you get the right Hornet, you will have a very good and servicable game round. I took a couple of winter prairiedogs today with mine. One was 125 yards and the other 238 yards. My rifle is a CZ 527 American and I don't think there is a finer .22 Hornet made. JMHO, of course.~Andrew

[pnse]

I really like the low noise of the .17AH but I am no expert reloader. I currently load fort my 7-08 and .243, nothing special required. Its my main worry with this round. Also the wind is a bugger in the hebrides, my father copes rather well with his hmr but it can be frustrating.

 

David

 

you don't have to be an expert reloader to reload for the 17 ackley hornet,this was my first centerfire and i had no problems getting to grips with it,as you have already reloaded other cases you have a head start,as posted previously you don't need forming dies i run the cases through the seating die then the full length die,load the case with a 20 grn vmax atop 11grns n120 and fireform while shooting things,as to the wind the 17 ackley hornet is a world away from the hmr.Run the numbers between the 22 and 17 hornet in a ballistic program and you'll find with a 20 grn vmax going between 3700fps and 3800fps the ackley hornet win hands down in the wind.

atb paul

[Alycidon]

Thanks for the advice so far, sounds like this is not going to be as simple as I first hoped.

 

I really like the low noise of the .17AH but I am no expert reloader. I currently load fort my 7-08 and .243, nothing special required. Its my main worry with this round. Also the wind is a bugger in the hebrides, my father copes rather well with his hmr but it can be frustrating.

 

Andrew, you have got me interested in the standard hornet but your comment about the k-hornet has got my attention. How much more work is the case prep for the k?

 

.20 hornet, I can't find any info on this roud at the minute but will keep looking. This could have potential.

 

The .17 machIV sounds like a real contender, but like cornishman I don't think I need that extra 00mph and its nearly double the powder.

 

Please remember I will only be geting a barrel because I am shooting a single shot thomson centre Encore, so I am not worried about resale. This site has taught me that barrels are disposable items.......

 

David

 

Todd Kindler in the US has done a lot of work on 20s, his book on 20s ( a collection of articals from Small Caliber News) is a good reference manual. He keeps everything you will need in stock and is an excellent guy to talk to and deal with.

 

http://www.woodchuckden.com/catalog/page1.pdf

 

But from what the others are saying about 17AH that looks another promising way to go but the wind drifts will be more. I would think you could get an unchambered barrel and have it chambered here to what you want.

 

A

[casts_by_fly]

Scotch,

 

For 300 yard shooting, the 32 gr (.204) v-max at 3400 will have the same windage as a 20 gr (.172) at 3800, but the 20 gr will drop 4" less. That is what you could shoot for with a hornet based 17 or 20. Not a whole lot of difference really. But, with the 17 at 3800 you can be +/- 1/2" out to 175 and only 1" low at 200 if you like to point and click. For me shooting rabbits and hares <200 yards, I like the 17AH because I can aim for the center of the head and not worry about the range. With the 20 you can't do that (be +/- 1/2" for as far out).

 

Obviously with the encore you don't have the problems listed above of gunsmith costs of installing a barrel, magazine feeding, etc. I'm in the same boat and I chose the 17.

 

Thanks,

Rick

[Mulerider]

Another vote for the 17AH, as it performs well out past 200yds, with minimal report. The one complaint is the dies are pricey, for reasons unknown. No need for form dies, as I have only used my FL sizer in making my brass. I did have an issue with Remington brass (crumpled shoulders), no problem with Winchester. Polished the shoulder area of the die, and now the Rem's slide right thru.

 

As stated before, the FF loads often shoot extremely well, so no loss of time or money, just fun shooting! I use either AA1680 or VV 120 in my loads, mainly 20gr, but recently acquired 1000 of the Hornady 17gr pills (as used in the HMR)...those should be interesting on our resident crows. I may try some Alliant 410 powder under the 17gr; it was a bit too fast burning under the 20gr, but may shine pushing the 17gr.

 

I also shoot the 17MIV, and it seems like a magnum to the 17AH. It is certainly louder, but pushes 25-30gr bullets with authority.

 

17 and 20 cal are so much fun!

 

Greg

[Redfox]

222 with 50 gr is minimum for deer. Dont forget the 17 rem fireball this is noww a factory round and uses very little powder for extremely good performance, easier to reload than the hornet due to less powder and better performance as well. I have the 17 Rem but if I was using like you I would go for the fireball.

redfox