Click values, not 0.25inch or moa??? (see pic)

[phillips321]

Hi guys,

 

I've got a bushnell elite 6500 4.5-30x50 on my blaser r93 222.

 

Today I took the time to test the click values at 100 yards (ranged using laser range finder).

 

I shot 3 shots at bull, then clicked 5inches up and right, shot 3, clicked left 10 inches, shot 3, down 10 inches, shot 3 and finally right 10 inches before resetting and shooting the bull.

 

So between the corner points i was expecting 10inch gaps, but it's resulted in 11inch gaps, both in the elevation and windage. Now i know that scopes are never exact but i kinda was hoping for either moa or inches, but this is neither.

 

The bushnell site says it's both moa and inches...? http://bushnell.com/hunting/rifle-scopes/elite-6500/elite-6500-4-5-30-x-50mm

 

Quote: 1/4 M.O.A. or finer fingertip, audible/resettable windage and elevation adjustment

 

and then further down the page the following quote: Click Value: in.@100yds/mm@100m .25/7

 

​Should i be concerned, or bothered? I was hoping to try some long range shooting at maybe 300 or 400 yards but i can't trust the click values i don't know how to dial in using the Strelok app on my phone.

 

Thanks in advance

 

[gbal]

OK,relatively good news is that it isn't too bad,and useable-with the proviso that it's not quite clear in places.Essential to do this,to check any scope's acual click value-s you note,they can all be off to some extent,the better scope much less.

 

the specs give the click value as .25" at 100y (or 7mm at100m-forget that here).

 

Some us huntingscopes were calibrated as that 4 clicks gibve 1 inch at 100y (refeweed to a ;hunting moa);in a true moa scope the 4 clicks would give 1 moa at 100y ie 1.047 inches.

The difference does not matter really at short range,but does accumulate.

 

OK,you say you moved POI (intended) up 5 inches-do you mean you dialled in 20 clicks (20x1/4 =5)

 

and 40 clicks for the 10 inch moves.

 

OK as you say,you would expect 10 inches (Hunting moa) or 10.47 true moa)

 

Your ruler measure looks about 101/2",but we need to takenote of the 3shot dispersals too-they look around 1/2" -so there will be some measure error/variability from that.(1/2 inch wouldn't be surprising...)

 

You do get back to bull/original zeroed group fairly closely. But of course 3 or 400 yardswill amplify these discrepancies pro rata. (but still maybe 2 or 3 inches only?)

 

Now, you need obviously a velocity,or reasonable bullet drop calculation.Nothing beats an accurate chrono-that is your rifle/load data. But failing that ,for now, can you not look up manufacturers tables for your powder and bullet load,and get their predicted velocity (barrel length matters too,but we can allow for that).

It may well not be spot on for your rifle,but it won't be way off.....and a ballistics program (like quick load etc) will get you tolerably close to reality (actual firing holes)...assuming a reasonable size target sheet,which can be checked,and clicks adjusted for closest match.

 

(ballistic programs only work to the extent their default inputs exactly match the actual rifle/load-eg actual scope height,as well as the variables of velocityBC,weather and so on.)

And rifles vary-actually it's individualbarrels.

 

But it's far from hopeless-just how easy/not partly depends on your being able to check POIs at the 300 (or 400) targets.

Just as a guide,a 222 with 200 zero ( about 1.5 high at 100y) impacts like: 6 to 9 inches low at 300 for 50-60g ish bullets @3150 ish MV. 100fps won't change those those much at 300y-big target sheet is the insurance-you just need to see where POI (5 shots better than 3) is and click accordingly.

 

That should be manageable,with a decent sized target for POI,and fine tune from there,meanwhile?

I'd try 300 first,unless you have a fast twist 222,400 is stretching a tad-though it's a wonderful short range cartridge.

 

gbal

[phillips321]

gbal, thanks a million for the informed and clear reply.

 

Yes i dialled 20 clicks and then 40 clicks. I've been using present wrapping paper or wall paper as the sheets are big enough and free currently.

 

The groups are around 1moa, and if i do my part i can get them down to 0.5moa. I was rushing a little this morning as had to pick the little one up from horse riding!

 

I've zeroed at 200 yards and yes it's about an 1.5inches at 100yards (I actually zero at 100 and then make the elevation adjustment and check elevation is bang on at 200, that the correct way?)

 

Am hoping to try 300yards next week if the wind and rain holds off, and will then try 400 yards.

 

All in all once i know how many clicks my homeloads need at various ranges I'm just planning to mark it on the turret and then forget about the actual moa or inches. Regardless, i won't be shooting any charlies past 200, and that's in the day. Much less at night.

 

Oh and i'm using 50grain v-max with 22.5grains of N133 in PPU brass

[gbal]

Good,sounds Ok.

Hornady's factory 50g Vmax @3140 is 1.6at 100 :zero @ 200 and 2.5 drift ; -7.8 and 6.1 drift at 300;24 and 11.7 drift at 400y (this with 5mph wind).

 

Zero at 100 or 200 -much the same -though there is a case for the longer zer/checks as error is easier to see (groups a bit bigger!). But 100y is often used as zero in charts etc,so easier to use that. My SAAMI data is all 200 zero.

222 should give 1/2 moa with a load it likes,slightly better would raise no eyebrows-with a very steady rest etc. Always been an excellent fox cartridge,and one of my favourites up to 250y (golf balls are in real danger)!

There is nothing at all in field terms to be gained by pushing pressures for a little velocity-it's small fractions of an inch-go for best accuracy with the 222. V133 should provide that.

At your leisure and pleasure,mark your turrets for your range tested drops with your loads-you won't need much clicking ,just as you say. Enjoy.

 

gbal

[OSOK]

Hi , If your looking to find the click value of your scope then you need to do the following;

 

Only zero at 100 as 200 is just doubling user and conditions error

The 100 yards needs to be EXACT from your turret to target board

An accurate rifle or your results can't be trusted

A target board that's tall enough to cover the range of your scopes elevation

Turn your elevation to virtually bottom and shoot a group

Dial on as much elevation without maxing out and shoot another group

Then measure the group centres and divide by how much moa you dialled on

Then divide by your scopes click value to find the exact value of click .

 

20 or 40 clicks of adjustment is not anywhere near enough movement to rely on your findings and to be confident this really needs to be done using a rifle that bug holes and in a controlled environment like a tunnel range .

 

PS. Do not assume that the wind age will be the same !

 

I hope this helps

 

OSOK

[gbal]

" In my experience,more than 50% of the time, error in trajectory prediction at long range is actually scope adjustment error.

For serious long range shooting,following the test described in this article is a must" Bryan Litz

 

Accurate Shooter : "How to check your scope's true click value ".

 

Osok makes relevant points.

It's difficult for the casual shooter to access a bug hole rifle and wind free long range conditions for the article grade test.

 

Note too,this is definitive testing for 'serious long range shooters"- for field shooting to 200,and casual target shooting to 300 ish,then something more doable/less rigourous will suffice. But it is well worth doing,as you have found,and any 'customised' turret guide should be based on your actual shooting results,just as you propose.

As a first approximation,dialing in your likely real shooting clicks and test firing ,say about 5-10 times separately returning to zero between each,should confirm adequate scope reliability for purpose (if not,consider an upgrade-used Night Force eg need not cost £1000+).

gbal

[ds1]

Or buy a scope collimator (I have a decent US Optics one) where I can track the reticule against a square grid, over the range of adjustment vertical and horizontal. You can work out click value based on the grid without rifle, environmental and shooter factors screwing the results. It will also show vertical and horizontal tracking error due to the scope or reticule not being level.

[OSOK]

phillips321 , If you want to know the click value which is what the thread is about then the way ive said works . You dont need ' Long range wind free conditions ' Just a 100 yard tunnel range or a perfect wind free day .

 

You also need to be spot on with the 100 yard distance from turret to target using some type of laser level or long tape and not one of our range finders .

 

Without a gun that shoots tight groups you'll have no idea where in the groups to measure to and from without guessing ! most of this is just common sense .

 

Its always useful to drop a plumb line from your top group to see how level the scope really is . BE WARNED this might not be in the best interests of anyone with OCD that doesn't want almost right BUT exactly right as if like me you you dial 67 moa and find your scope is approx 1/4 left then leave well alone

 

OSOK

[phillips321]

also need to be spot on with the 100 yard distance from turret to target using some type of laser level or long tape and not one of our range finders .

 

I currently use a laser range finder, is that not accurate enough? And the 100 yards is from the tip of my shooting position, not the tip of my moderator or the turrets of my scope, where should it be?

 

Or buy a scope collimator (I have a decent US Optics one) where I can track the reticule against a square grid, over the range of adjustment vertical and horizontal. You can work out click value based on the grid without rifle, environmental and shooter factors screwing the results. It will also show vertical and horizontal tracking error due to the scope or reticule not being level.

I've seen these but how accurate are the measurements on them? I can't find any on eBay. How much do they go for?

[OSOK]

Please don't beat yourself up about this as its not going to kick in until you start pushing the distance . Just get your rifle zeroed at 100 as very best as you can and by all means do this test if you've nothing better to do but don't let it play with your head .

 

OSOK

[gbal]

As OSOK-and my posts-be pragmatic on this.

 

You could do worse than actual zero at 100,and just try some shots dialed in as per the data at 300-that will tell you something about grouping at that distance (or any other as fired) as well as drop/drift with your rig and shooting.

Ten such shots are a reality check,cost only the ammo (inevitable with any testing).

"minute of fox" ? :-)

 

gbal

[ds1]

P321, a collimator is the industry standard way of checking and testing scopes as it removes other factors including parallax which I did not mention earlier as scopes are set to infinity. It will be the most accurate. There is obviously a difference between industrial units and hobby ones but the principle remains the same, at least from the industrial Meopta ones I've seen. I class my Us Optics one as a good hobby one it was good enough to notice slightly tracking issues that I had with Us Optics sn9 scopes, which were 4 grand a pop.

 

If it makes sense the higher mag your scope has the larger the grid squares in the collimator look, the easier it is to check accuracy.

 

The downside with a collimator is that it doesn't check for scope problems under recoil.

 

Cost and models, cost I do not know, but it is a one time buy. I think Leupold made or make them. I do not like the ones that have a brass spigot that slides down the bore. The USO one is magnetic.

 

Value for money? If you have several rifles and scopes and like to change and test things it will work out cheaper than shooting ammunition amd you can do it at home. If you have one rifle and scope and are not obsessed with testing and checking - follow Osoks advice.

[gbal]

I have a Leupold optical collimator,and agree with ds,with one important reservation-mine at least really struggles with high magnification scopes-36x,no way 12 x,very handy,more as a check the zero is still as set,at least to field useable standards. £70 maybe-it was over £50 ten ago,not convinced it's cost effective,more a quick check.

gbal

[forbie]

Was your scope on the proper mag for .250 ?