geese shooting

[Guest luckyjohn99]

can someone tell me if you are aloud to shoot geese. i'm new to this shooting and not sure what to shoot and when you are aloud to shoot (seasons) i'v been asked to shoot some canadian geese but i dont know if there class as pest or game any help plz ...john

[foxhunter]

Canada geese are now classified as vermin and may be shot all year round. Obviuosly the other geese greylags and pinks must be shot in season.

[nuttyspaniel]

I think youll find that shooting Canadas outwith the season may still need an out of season permit. But again I stay in Scotland and the law may be different, best jump on the basc site and have a poke around or if your a memeber ask them. I have about 500+ acres which I decoy on and in march 5k+ pinkfeet decided they were going to stuck into the winter wheat, the farmer put a banger out and we watched if they hadnt been detered we would have applied for an out of season ticket but for that we had to show that we done all in our powers to stop them 1st!

[cooperman223]

You do know its breeding time? yes you can shoot canadas throught the year , providing you stick to the non toxic shot rule

the problem is wheather you can sleep at night knowing you might have just killed Mr & Mrs goose

leaving the goslings to die of cold.

Leave them untill at least August if you can, then hit them hard all winter.

Its purley ethical, same as all shooting at this time of year.

[Finman]

You do know its breeding time? yes you can shoot canadas throught the year , providing you stick to the non toxic shot rule

the problem is wheather you can sleep at night knowing you might have just killed Mr & Mrs goose

leaving the goslings to die of cold.

Leave them untill at least August if you can, then hit them hard all winter.

Its purley ethical, same as all shooting at this time of year.

 

hmmm.... I don't shoot foxes this time of year, but I do shoot (canada) geese. I have taken 14 in the last couple of weeks from a zoo (with the permission and invitation of the zoo keeper) where a lot of exotic wildfowl is kept and the canadas choose to also nest. I have seen canadas drown malard ducklings and destroy the nesting areas of other wildfowl and they even have attacked my dog! So, no mercy. If they have goslings, they go too.

 

Now, being that the place we shoot them is accessible to the public (obviously we go after the public is gone!!) and the fact that they produce a lot of excrement, they present a health and safety hazard and therefore can be legally shot. The fact that they are classified as vermin is not an excuse to shoot them, the licence is only applicable if these animals pose specific risks or cause damage. I would be interested in the legalities of non-toxic shot, given that they no longer are classed as 'game' and are shot as 'vermin' where no restriction to the type of ammunition (as long as it is expanding) is placed. I have shot canadas with both the .17HMR but also with other rifles...

 

Best wishes,

 

Finman

[Jay Foxing]

Hi luckyjohn99,

 

If your in Wales like me, you will need to apply for a license from DEFRA. They are vermin here but they did not put them on the Open General Licence. So no shooting out of season for us welsh lads and lasses.

 

Jay.

[cooperman223]

"The fact that they are classified as vermin is not an excuse to shoot them, the licence is only applicable if these animals pose specific risks or cause damage. I would be interested in the legalities of non-toxic shot, given that they no longer are classed as 'game' and are shot as 'vermin' where no restriction to the type of ammunition (as long as it is expanding) is placed. I have shot canadas with both the .17HMR but also with other rifles..."

 

Some interesting points Finman,

Geese have never been classed as game, they are wildfowl, so they come under wildfowl laws, so that includes the type of ammunition they are shot with.

My self and some other forum members are keen wildfowlers and cannot shoot any wildfowl with lead shot of any size, shape or form (england) not even copper coated lead, so please be careful about what information you write.

but, they can be shot under general licence as pests (for whatever reason).

There has been plenty of discussion on another forum about this topic of shooting canada geese with rifles, it went on for months,

i hope this does not.

Its each to his own.

ps, i do shoot foxes though.

[Finman]

thanks for the info Cooperman... I have no intention of making a long and protracted debate about the issue. I shoot the canadas on reserves, zoos and such other places under licence as part of a pest control operation. Last year I took 54 with the HMR out of a reservoir, the police and DEFRA were both informed and nobody asked any questions about the type of ammunition that we used to shoot them with.

 

I might have given the wrong impression with my message. I was not trying to highlight the letter of the law or the rules for pest control nor to inform, was only giving my opinion based on the stuff I've read in the bASC website with regard to vermin.

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/media/basc_overview...ences_in_uk.pdf

 

and

 

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/conservat...L%20Gen-L05.pdf

 

Similar questions (i.e. type of ammunition etc) will be of interest to stalkers, if (and that is a very big IF) the sika deer are at some point included in the pest species...

 

With regard to the Canadas, in neither of these two documents (above) is the type of ammunition specified, unless there are aspects of the law that are not highlighted in these. Any guidance on the matter will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Best wishes,

 

Finman

 

ps: each to their own...

[cooperman223]

No problem Finman,

just an advisory that being geese they are wildfowl, not vermin.

Another law that has been passed without much thought.

[shrek]

I am also an avid wildfowler and have most of my sport on Wigtown bay on the scottish side of the solway "known as the wildfowling mecca to most" however what cooperman has clearly pointed out that canada's although now on the general licence in england are still classed as wildfowl and therefore technically still need to be shot with non-toxic shot, however this is another area where the idiots coming up with these rules fall on as they themselves contredict there own laws, Finman keep doin what your doing its all political crap us as sportsmen dont need, i agree with the non-toxic idea i've found wildfowl on our ponds with lead poisoning and my father and i started using non-toxic shot 5 years before the ban was put in place, the scottish lads have delt with the situation far better that the english side, but alsong as there is proof of damage from the canadas they can be shot no questions asked. a 17hmr bullet will frag and thump into the ground far to deep for waterfowl to get their beaks round!

If u wanted to be on the right side of this contraditory law, just used some barnes varmint grenades (non-toxic) and you probably wouldnt have anythin left to go and get hehe!

[Finman]

Hi Shrek,

 

Indeed, I am all too aware of lead poisoning; a friend lost 6 of his prized rare breed ducks (don't ask me what they were) due to pellets falling into their pont from the local shoot who had rights to shoot close to their land. Nevertheless, a canada is usually shot on land, and, even if a lead containing or lead bullet hits it, in my experience at least it doesn't exit (in the case of the HMR)...

 

the land where they are usually shot is not conducive to using a larger calibre (such as the 6mmBR-although I would love to give them some 6mm medicine...). In all cases where we took canadas, I stress, it was all under contract with a pest control company and not for 'sport' or 'varminting'. Anyway, and we said we won't be talking about this for ages!!

 

How's that 6mm getting along??

 

take care

 

Finman

[cooperman223]

Shrek,

do you recognise this place?

[shrek]

cooperman your shooting my favorite place on the marsh, skellier rock, legendary place for pinks haha, it really is a small world, you look as though it a sucessful place for you to, are u a member of the wigtown bay wildfowlers club?

 

Yea finman thats the point i was getting at its an arse of a rule, which in scotland is sorted, as we can use lead aslong as we are shooting away from a permanant body of water, with exculsions on satlmarshs SSSI's etc

 

BR's comin fine just got a v-max load sorted i think havent had much time do do any loading or shooitn at the moment!

[cooperman223]

Hi Shrek, ive shot wigtown bay for 19 seasons, had some good times up there,

i used to stay at the pub in kirkinner, then when jims mother died that stopped, so it was b&b wherever we could get in after that,

then the fordbank hotel, now we have been staying at one of the cottages at culscaden

we used to pay jim stewart £10 for access to the crook, but now i am a member of galloway wildfowlers,

i shoot a lot with morecambe bay wildfowlers, thats a great club with 26,000 acres to go at and an average of 25k of pinks wintering on our marshes,

like you i prefer to shoot skellier rock area, but not round culscaden bay as it seems to get too much attention from the mile high club,

are you a member of the wildfowling forum?

john.

[Toby]

Just an outsiders point of view but surely the non toxic issue refers to shotgun pellets not rifle projectiles?This would seem to be common sense seen as most wildfowling involves the use of shotguns.In Norway we have had the lead shot ban for knocking on 15yrs,never any restrictions on rifles (other than muzzle energy-ducks 22LR HP,geese 22Hornet and up)Many hunters over here enjoy hunting both wildfowl and blackgame/capercaillie with a rifle.regards Toby

[Guest Fewmet]

The BASC's advice is to look closely at the terms of the general license. That is the exact piece of law that allows shooting out of season. They are NOT classified as vermin. They are schedule 2 part 2 of the wildlife and countryside act. The circumstances where they can be controlled are quite closely defined. Be careful.

[Guest Fewmet]

thanks for the info Cooperman... I have no intention of making a long and protracted debate about the issue. I shoot the canadas on reserves, zoos and such other places under licence as part of a pest control operation. Last year I took 54 with the HMR out of a reservoir, the police and DEFRA were both informed and nobody asked any questions about the type of ammunition that we used to shoot them with.

 

I might have given the wrong impression with my message. I was not trying to highlight the letter of the law or the rules for pest control nor to inform, was only giving my opinion based on the stuff I've read in the bASC website with regard to vermin.

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/media/basc_overview...ences_in_uk.pdf

 

and

 

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/conservat...L%20Gen-L05.pdf

 

Similar questions (i.e. type of ammunition etc) will be of interest to stalkers, if (and that is a very big IF) the sika deer are at some point included in the pest species...

 

With regard to the Canadas, in neither of these two documents (above) is the type of ammunition specified, unless there are aspects of the law that are not highlighted in these. Any guidance on the matter will be greatly appreciated.

Best wishes,

 

Finman

 

ps: each to their own...

 

I would take the view that the law that applies is that which is most specific to the situation.

In this case, the use of the word "vermin" on an FAC would be unlikely to provide and real legal support in the event of a prosecution since there is other, more specific legislation in place with regard to Canadas.

 

With regard to Canada's being classified as Wildfowl and subject to control over what it can be shot with, there is a footnote to the General Licence:

"n) The authorised person should have regard to the Environmental Protection (Restriction on Use of

Lead Shot) (England) Regulations 1999 (SI 1999/2170). Regulation 3 prohibits the use of lead

shot for the purpose of shooting geese with a shot gun.

It is in the notes and doesn't form part of the actual licence.

 

However, this section does form part of the license:

"Please note that except as provided under section 16(7) of the Act, this licence does not permit

actions prohibited under any other legislation. For example, where the action involves the use of

firearms, it is the authorised person’s responsibility to ensure that he complies with all relevant

legislation."

 

In the Interpretation section of the Lead shot regulations 1999 however, it says:

 

"Interpretation

2. In these Regulations-

 

 

"authorised person" means a person authorised under regulation 4(1) below;

 

"lead shot" means any shot made of-

 

 

(a) lead, or

 

( any alloy or compound of lead where lead comprises more than 1% of that alloy or compound;

 

"premises" includes any land, vehicle or vessel, but does not include premises used for residential purposes;

 

"shot gun" means a smooth-bore gun but does not include any shot gun chambered for 9 millimetre or smaller rim-fire cartridges; "

 

This suggests that the regulations do not apply to the use of rifles and, further that there is the possibility that weapons other than shotguns might be used.

 

So, the question of whether you can or cannot use a rifle isn't entirely rystal clear and there is probably room within the wording for prosecutions to be brought if someone didn't like your activities.

I would suggest that the BASC is contacted and asked to clarify the position.

[Finman]

Fewmet

 

thanks for the detailed explanation. What I will say is that in one occasion, some 'doogooder' in the police (I think the Chief constable was a RSPB member or something) did try and make a bit of a fuss of us shooting geese in a reservoir. They phoned me at 12 midnight to check that I had the authority to use the firearm I was using, took my details and FAC numbers and we thought that was it.

 

Next day some git showed up at the depo to take pictures of the dead geese in the trailer... Even then, nothing came of it. So, as far as I am concerned, if they need shot, they will be, the general license does include them with the likes of crows and magpies, and, unless someone tells me otherwise, I shall continue head shooting them with a rifle.

 

Best wishes,

 

Finman

[Guest Fewmet]

Fewmet

 

thanks for the detailed explanation. What I will say is that in one occasion, some 'doogooder' in the police (I think the Chief constable was a RSPB member or something) did try and make a bit of a fuss of us shooting geese in a reservoir. They phoned me at 12 midnight to check that I had the authority to use the firearm I was using, took my details and FAC numbers and we thought that was it.

 

Next day some git showed up at the depo to take pictures of the dead geese in the trailer... Even then, nothing came of it. So, as far as I am concerned, if they need shot, they will be, the general license does include them with the likes of crows and magpies, and, unless someone tells me otherwise, I shall continue head shooting them with a rifle.

 

Best wishes,

 

Finman

 

Finman,

The lead shot regulations were introduced to protect wetlands so head shooting a CG on dry land certainly isn't against the spirit or intention of that legislation. That legislation allows that weapons other than shotguns might be used and excludes them from its coverage. So, unless there's another piece of legislation somewhere that categorically states that you can only shoot CG's with a shotgun & non-toxics, I'd say that the police certainly wouldn't have a clear case for handing to the CPS or for reviewing your certificates.

 

But; Don't forget that the police, including wildlife liason officers are target driven nowadays and may push harder in a bid to reach their alloted quotas.

DEFRA/Natural England have also done several monitoring projects on compliance with the Lead Shot regulations and there's another review in the pipe. This is driven in part by a need to comply with EU targets.

They've got money to throw at lawyers that you & I don't have so, keep your activities out of the public eye if you can

[Guest Fewmet]

Sorry to return to this but this section from the Met Police website might clarify things:

 

"Vermin control

This subject generally refers to the control of certain pests, on farmland and other suitable areas, and includes rats, rabbits, grey squirrels and foxes.

 

Calibre usage

.22 rim-fire: small pests such as rats, rabbits and grey squirrels.

 

.22 Hornet, .220, .222, .22/250, .223: pest species including foxes.

 

Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

Shooters should acquaint themselves with The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (WCA) and comply accordingly. Particular note should be made of the restriction imposed by Section 5, which makes it an offence to use an automatic or semi-automatic weapon which has a magazine capacity of more than two rounds, to kill any wild bird. The definition also encompasses Section 1 (Firearms Act 1968 as amended) pump-action and semiautomatic shotguns, and any rifles whether bolt-action, pump-action or semiautomatic, with such magazines, including air weapons. However, a person will not be guilty of this offence if they have obtained a specific licence for themselves from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) - 0117 372 8903 (general enquiries). Any person committing this offence may also commit an offence of failing to comply with the conditions of his/her firearm certificate if he/she is only authorised for vermin control.

 

Any landowner giving permission to anyone who does not hold the appropriate DEFRA licence to use a Section 1 shotgun or any rifle with a magazine capacity of more than two rounds for such activities, will also commit an offence under Section 5.

 

The shooter does not need to have even taken a shot. If he/she is in possession of such a weapon with the intention of shooting wild birds, he/she commits an offence under Section 18 WCA, which is treated as if the offence had actually been committed.

 

On conviction, a court can order the forfeiture of anything used to commit the offence, including firearms or even vehicles (Section 21 WCA).

 

Whilst there is little dispute that birds such as wild geese and Canada geese are destructive and a nuisance to farmers, etc., they are not legally classified as vermin by either the RSPB or DEFRA. In fact all birds are protected.

 

Notwithstanding this, the Secretary of State for the Environment issues an official decree every two years which amounts to an exemption from the usual prohibitions placed on the killing of specific species of wild birds with Section 1 shotguns. The following thirteen species are at the moment included in this exemption:

 

Canada Goose

Crow

Collared Dove

Great Black-backed Gull

Lesser Black-backed Gull

Herring Gull

Jackdaw

Jay

Magpie

Feral Pigeon

Rook

Wood Pigeon Branta Canadensis

Corvus corone

Stretopelia decaocto

Larus marinus

Larus fuscus

Larus argentatus

Corvus monedula

Garrulus glandarius

Pica pica

Columbia livia

Corvus frugilegus

Columba palumbus

 

On 10th February 2005, under Section 16 of The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, DEFRA issued an amendment to their general licence (WLF18) list. As from 28th February 2005, (commencement of new licence year), House Sparrow (Passer Domesticus) and Starling (Sternus Vulgaris), are removed and Canada Goose (Branta Canadensis) added.

 

(see www.defra.gov.uk/news/2005/050210a.htm )

 

There are many species of animals which are protected - far too many to list here. They are all included in The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and it is every shooter's responsibility to ensure that they do not kill or harm such species.

 

More information on this subject can be obtained from the British Association of Shooting and Conservation. "

 

 

http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/deer1.htm

[Finman]

Fewmet,

 

this is excellent, thank you. Perhaps what I did not clarify in my messages above, is that the culling was part of a professional pest control operation and all relevant police and DEFRA licences had been applied and gotten.

 

I hope this clears the matter somewhat, and I do apologise for not making this clearer at the outset. I thought that the recalling of the incidence where the police did check with me on this gave some insight on the matter.

 

I am perplexed though that they do forbid the shooting of wild birds with semiautomatic weapons, as these seem to be the weapon of choice for most wildfowlers. Unless a semiautomatic shotgun is not classified as a 'weapon'...

 

Best wishes,

 

Finman