Alternatives to 6.5 Scenar 123 & 139 for RRC

[oaken]

Tiff has done his own testing on the new Scenars, their ability to penetrate the steels and their tendency to deflect off soft ground without breaking up.

If the people that attend can't keep their bullets inside the massive bunkers he has built (and it would seem many can't by the churned up grass around the closer bunkers!!!) then he is right to disallow the projectiles that he has found to present the most risk.

His venue is not a range, and it does not have "a fallout area" to make it safe for idiots like bisley and other official ranges do. Individuals are expected to shoot to a level of competence that ensures that their bullets end up in the safe areas that have been created for them.

BD, we know about your aversion to anything related to reloading! Fortunately, I think the majority of people shooting at this level regard reloading and load development as part of the fun of shooting, I certainly relish the thought of booking range time to tune up a new load. And you have nearly 4 months to get it together.

ORG, Sticking your finger up to the organisers request by suggesting using the scenars regardless, is hardly constructive and in poor taste even though it was a "joke". Organising a shoot like this relies on a degree of integrity from those attending.

Rup

[Offroad Gary]

Chill out Rup, i was just tugging your chain, like i would after a post shoot pint or 3 with some of my mates.

 

Unlike you, ive never been on a range(apart from diggle) or know what a danger area is, but also unlike you, i take hundreds of shots, every year, on varied ground, sometimes in close proximity to buildings, livestock and people. Many of them with bullets designed to stay together. Having shot the Rrc twice, i never felt any concern for where my bullets were ending up (and i think about every shot, unlike range users). The targets are well placed, and all very safe. Luckily i use amax in my rifle, its a shame that some "precision rifle enthusiasts" are being told to lower their standards for a few quids worth of steel plate.

[Dustyman]

Oops , 105s please , not 205 gr arrows :-)

[tackb]

Gents , we all want the same thing , an area to practice field type shooting on steels ? Let's not drag this into a slanging match or try and change the providers rules or ethos ?

 

Wether you agree with tiffs decision or not suck it up and either adapt or just don't go?

 

We need events like this and the MQC etc

 

I'd quite like to try CSR but my triggers don't meet the regs so I'm not going , simples ! I do however hope they have a great time and hope the discipline succeeds.

[Bushdog]

Well said TackB.

 

I was one of the culprits using Scenars at the last RRC, although I doubt the older type bullets at .308 velocities (168@2650-ish) made them particularly damaging on steel (they don't seem to have damaged the steels on my own test range, which is by and large much closer than those at the RRC).

 

However, if Tiff doesn't want them used, so be it.

 

I shall be developing a load with SMKs for the spring RRC (can't make the autumn one). Maybe the change of bullet will improve my appalling performances so far!!

[brown dog]

Bushdog, TackB,

 

I know this is the world of the internet and all that brings; but there are no 'well dones' etc; your perception of that is exactly the polarisation we aim not to do here.

 

Adults chatting about a new rule in a pub, and attempting to persuade an owner that a new rule is unnecessary is not a conversation of absolutes; it's a conversation. If, following that chat, the owner is resolute, then so be it.

 

But please don't leap to internet absolutes before that conversation has even occurred.

 

Now, I think the new rule is pish; but it's Tiff's perogative; and he's explained to me the 'why' offline; and I accept it - but I had the conversation before I would leap to or accept a view that "the leader's always right and the idea cannot be discussed because that challenges the regime"

- rather North Korean, and not, I'm sure you'd accept, how life happens face to face.

[Offroad Gary]

A safe shot, is a safe shot, no matter what type of ammo is being used. An unsafe shot cant turn into a safe shot by changing bullet type. Risk can be mitigated, but the facts remain the same.

 

Hunting bullets, which are allowed, might actually be more dangerous than the dreaded scenars.

 

Im glad ive got hundreds of Amax!

[sako 75 .243]

It seems to me that most are missing the the main point here!..Safety!!..IF scenars have a thicker jacket or a higher density core and are acting like FMJ then ricochets going out of bounds have to be a factor to be considered.

 

Safe shot or not..... ricochets happen!!....Lighting up MR or MRS.Tiff snr....or a walker that strays into the area is not something I would want to live with....could you??

[Missed]

When planning any range, plotting the RDA that is suitable for both the calibre and nature of ammo to be used should be the priority. If there is any possibility, the Emperor will make an appearance.

[gbal]

Bushdog, TackB,

 

I know this is the world of the internet and all that brings; but there are no 'well dones' etc; your perception of that is exactly the polarisation we aim not to do here.

 

Adults chatting about a new rule in a pub, and attempting to persuade an owner that a new rule is unnecessary is not a conversation of absolutes; it's a conversation. If, following that chat, the owner is resolute, then so be it.

 

But please don't leap to internet absolutes before that conversation has even occurred.

 

Now, I think the new rule is pish; but it's Tiff's perogative; and he's explained to me the 'why' offline; and I accept it - but I had the conversation before I would leap to or accept a view that "the leader's always right and the idea cannot be discussed because that challenges the regime"

- rather North Korean, and not, I'm sure you'd accept, how life happens face to face.

+1

North Korea is very Songun-ho !

This weekend has been partly about the consequences of such dictatorship in Europe.

 

The (Iron) Duke of Wellington complained to his 'adjutant' after his first Cabinet Meeting as PM : "An extraordinary affair.I gave them their orders and (the silly fellowes) wanted to stay behind and discuss them."

 

This style of leadership was apparently resurrected by Margaret Thatcher (the Iron Lady),until her 'silly fellowes' put the boot in.

 

Discuss,yes,but accept the joint action plan.

It may have been a 'damned close run thing',but Ike did 'get a result'..an away win against......u no who.

 

Gbal

[Swamp Donkey]

When planning any range, plotting the RDA that is suitable for both the calibre and nature of ammo to be used should be the priority. If there is any possibility, the Emperor will make an appearance.

I'm sure it's been said, but, the rrc is NOT a range, and bullets can, and do, some very strange things post impact.

 

Tiff has minimised the risk as far as reasonable possible within the constraints of the land available, and to be fair, there isn't many a place as suitable for this type of event, and if he (rightly so) deems a particular bullet as too high a risk, that's his right to ban it from use. (Nature of ammo ?)

 

The rrc is a 'field use' event, and I personally don't see that scenars are a 'field use' bullet, I have tried them on carcasses when I first started using them, and they zip clean through, as expected for a target bullet, ok, amax are also a 'target bullet' but, as we all know, and don't need to go there yet again, they expand well.

 

I'm also one of the many who have a good scenar load, and have had to work up another for the rrc, but, never mind, if that's how it needs to be to go, then that's fine, it also means I have an amax load for other uses. And to be fair, it's 650 ish yards, onto a 6"+ target, so all within 1moa, it's not hard to work a 1moa load really. Tip in a bit of powder, stick a bullet on top, and it's pretty much done. My standard .222 tikka shoots 1/2" with powder scooped from the pot and a bullet seated 'however' so the (mainly) custom 'precision rifles' that turn up at the rrc should be pretty easy to load for too (to 1" standards) it's not a competition, nothing to win or lose, a bit of fun, so why stress about it so much ? Just buy some ppu and have done with it

 

Pete

[Missed]

Fair point, however I was taught that any land over which a course of fire was to take place should be treated as a range and planned for accordingly.

[tackb]

Ok I'm back , (4yo birthday party done)

 

I'm not trying to polarise anything lads , it's just the way I see it is tiff had an issue , he researched it and found a solution only to be told he's wrong ? You can all still shoot the RRC , just not with scenar's . Seems like a fair solution to me ?

 

I did some practical Heath Robinson tests for myself a few years ago and found velocity to have a greater effect on steel penetration than bullet construction although I didn't test the scenar's ?

 

Best of luck at the shoot lads sounds great fun and it's a shame I can't make it this time , maybe next spring ?

[gbal]

Ok I'm back , (4yo birthday party done)

I'm not trying to polarise anything lads , it's just the way I see it is tiff had an issue , he researched it and found a solution only to be told he's wrong ? You can all still shoot the RRC , just not with scenar's . Seems like a fair solution to me ?

I did some practical Heath Robinson tests for myself a few years ago and found velocity to have a greater effect on steel penetration than bullet construction although I didn't test the scenar's ?

Best of luck at the shoot lads sounds great fun and it's a shame I can't make it this time , maybe next spring ?

+1

If you didn't follow my DDay reference it's just as above-the decision has been made by the chief commander -it's his show/responsibility.

So now everyone stops bitching and starts pitching.

You can of course start discussing issues for the next time,constructively.

There isn't a lot of info,even from silhouette shooting,though that has to have sufficient clout,and much other stuff is 223 .

I think at one time small calibre,ultra high velocity was thought/found more penetrative than just energy level but bullet construction (steel penetrator eg) will also be a factor.

Reload,shoot,enjoy,as tackb says.

I'm not going because I can't get my 222 to shoot 1/2 moa,though I suppose it might be that imprecise at 600y! :-)

Gbal

[Bushdog]

Brown Dog - I have never been accused of resembling a North Korean before!!

 

For the sake of clarity, I should state that I was not trying to polarise anyone, either. Seems to me that we all seem to be saying much the same thing with varying degrees of elegance. I have learnt a lot at every RRC I have attended and I have a lot more to learn at future ones.

 

Don't think I said anything that I wouldn't say face to face over a pint etc. - apologies if my dodgy grasp of language has been interpreted as more.

[mildot]

The way I see it is, regardless of where or who!

 

Who ever is running/planning a shoot can put in what ever restrictions they wish! it is there prerogative to do so! end of the day they have the right to the land and we are mere guests for that 1 day! they have it for the full 365days a year! or 366 if a leap year! ;-)

 

If you don't like the rules don't go! but also don't complain about them either. Im not happy about the speed restriction as I know 1 of rifles does 3200fps and I know the bullets hardly scratches the paint on the gongs! (own testing) but I will simply use another. I respect the land owner/organisers rules, full stop.

 

So all in all like it or lump! and lets not turn this thread into an argument as we may not have the use of a fantastic shoot!

 

 

p.s if anyone insist on using Scenars organise your own shoot!