Titanium Moderator

[auquhollie]

I have a mate that is a CNC machinest and i have asked him to source a piece of stock Titanium to make me a moderator. It would be very close to a PES only a hell of a lot lighter.

 

He reckons the Titanium is lighter and a hole lot stronger as well !!

 

Does anyone know anything about this metal ?

 

Would it be suitable for making a moderator ?.

 

I know it wouldnt be cheap but it would be lighter than a reflex and very close to the PES in design. It would also be possible to break it down to clean.

 

Any views / comments ?.

 

Cheers

 

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[londonhunter]

How about carbon fibre

 

I commisioned a carbon fibre gun case from alpha composites for my competition shotgun and it weighs about 900 grams as a one off

 

contact Mark Oxford at Alpha composites in Silverstone

 

Now they are marketing through Kevin Gill in UK and world wide

 

londonhunter

 

It should be easily to make the outer casing from carbon fibre composites

 

BTW I drove over my gun case with a 40 ton arti without any problems during testing but the hinges gave way so now for my case they used titanium hinges as well as well as locks !!!!!!!!!!hence 900 grams

[ejg223]

Never liked titanium, it's good for implants because of bio compatibility.

Otherwise, it's heavy, almost classified as a heavy metal. 4.5 g/ccm vs alu 2.7g/ccm

Tough to work, about like stainless. Biggest disadvantage is that if stressed load-unload it

can snap without warning cannot be relied on. Worst application would be a con-rod on a motor.

You cannot beat a good steel, but machining to small wall-sections creates problems.

Making a pressure vessel like a mod, steel would be the lightest if someone would take their time to calculate

it properly, with a reliable material like steel one wouldn't need such a great safety factor.

Remember the damn thing gets hot too, aluminium and standard composites aren't the greatest when heated.

 

The last mod I made weighed under 400g and was made of steel and aluminium for a 223. Design was guessed not calculated,

but is still going strong.

 

Best compromise between makability cost and weight could be, Steel, aluminium with the first baffels being steel or steel inserted.

A can and not over barrel design.

 

Before I'd think of titanium I'd go for composites, very good resins available but tricky to work with. not easy.

 

edi

[eldon]

As ejg just said, steel takes some beating if the design is right.

 

Everybody seem's to think aluminium and titanium are light. They can be, but so can steel.

For cyclic loading applications the aluminium option has to be thicker to provide the strength.

The titanium option would have to be similar to provide the safety factor...

 

And the steel would have to be thicker to allow for rust

 

So that leaves us with????????????????

[Jager SA]

Never liked titanium, it's good for implants because of bio compatibility.

Otherwise, it's heavy, almost classified as a heavy metal. 4.5 g/ccm vs alu 2.7g/ccm

Tough to work, about like stainless. Biggest disadvantage is that if stressed load-unload it

can snap without warning cannot be relied on. Worst application would be a con-rod on a motor.

You cannot beat a good steel, but machining to small wall-sections creates problems.

Making a pressure vessel like a mod, steel would be the lightest if someone would take their time to calculate

it properly, with a reliable material like steel one wouldn't need such a great safety factor.

Remember the damn thing gets hot too, aluminium and standard composites aren't the greatest when heated.

 

The last mod I made weighed under 400g and was made of steel and aluminium for a 223. Design was guessed not calculated,

but is still going strong.

 

Best compromise between makability cost and weight could be, Steel, aluminium with the first baffels being steel or steel inserted.

A can and not over barrel design.

 

Before I'd think of titanium I'd go for composites, very good resins available but tricky to work with. not easy.

 

edi

 

 

 

Yep im with Edi on this, its not suited to the moderator application, its bloody expensive and hard to work.

 

 

 

 

Kal

[Guest northernchris]

Have a look for thin wall T45 tube the same stuff the T8,s are made from,its one of the better steels out there,good to work exellent to weld ,then get it electroles nickle plated once built ,it should last a good while.

[ejg223]

How about carbon fibre

 

I commisioned a carbon fibre gun case from alpha composites for my competition shotgun and it weighs about 900 grams as a one off

 

contact Mark Oxford at Alpha composites in Silverstone

 

Now they are marketing through Kevin Gill in UK and world wide

 

londonhunter

 

It should be easily to make the outer casing from carbon fibre composites

 

BTW I drove over my gun case with a 40 ton arti without any problems during testing but the hinges gave way so now for my case they used titanium hinges as well as well as locks !!!!!!!!!!hence 900 grams

 

LH,

even some aerospace approved epoxy resins start getting soft above 60 deg C.

There are epoxy resins available that can take up to 230 C they are of 3 component type and

need special heat treatment to cure properly. A day or two in a furnace.

That should work as a mod housing, at least for a bolt action.

 

Just remembered, the best would possibly be CFC (carbon fibre carbon) very light, strong,

no heat problem, nice to machine, not cheap (Stuff they make the f1 break disks out of)

 

edi

[londonhunter]

If you folks are interested I can get Alpha composites a call and get a quotation to run a prototype.

 

If there are enough number making a cyclindrical outer casing is not an issue

 

heat is not an issue

 

excellent latent properties cocmpared to metal

 

CFC is not suitable due to different coeffient of shear however sandwich carbon is different

 

I am not expert but I know if there is an issue - the carbon metal interface is the location where problems will start

 

you guys can PM me for Mark Oxford's number he is really an authority on carbon sandwich structure stress issues

 

From experience runs of 50 and above will make it economical

[shrek]

Iv heard that titanium does not like carbon, changes the molecular make up of the metal and becomes very brittle, run a graphie pensil down a sheet of titaniun and it will snap down that line, so therefore screwing a titanium can onto a barrel is like tying a frag grenade on the end, its a big no no! the carbon residue and pressue from a muzzel blast would turn it into a bomb! Titanium mods have not been produced for a reason, and thats it!

Iv aslo built lightweight stainless mods which have dont the job fine on a 22-250, having to use a mod is a compromise on rifle weight and balance, but it just has to be expected. A good friend in the trade told me that lightweight it good, but safety is alot better!

[col48]

Iv heard that titanium does not like carbon, changes the molecular make up of the metal and becomes very brittle, run a graphie pensil down a sheet of titaniun and it will snap down that line, so therefore screwing a titanium can onto a barrel is like tying a frag grenade on the end, its a big no no! the carbon residue and pressue from a muzzel blast would turn it into a bomb! Titanium mods have not been produced for a reason, and thats it!

Iv aslo built lightweight stainless mods which have dont the job fine on a 22-250, having to use a mod is a compromise on rifle weight and balance, but it just has to be expected. A good friend in the trade told me that lightweight it good, but safety is alot better!

 

 

well i know of a few titanium mods that are going strong 2 or 3 years down the line.

 

ATB

Colin

[Toby]

There was an article in a Swedish hunting mag just recently about a guy that HAD a titanium mod on his 30-06 Blaser.I say had because he managed to blow the whole thing up.All that was left was the rear bushing,luckily apart from a few fragments on the forestock both him and the gun escaped without serious injury.When he approached the importer/dealer he was informed that due to several failures they no longer make the moderators in titanium.There is a Norwegian manafacturer (apart from A-tec)that offers magnum mods in titanium but I think they are an over barrel design that uses the barrel itself as an expansion chamber like some of the PES designs.I dont know all of the facts but to me it almost sounds like the bullet hit the edge of the mod?

[londonhunter]

Well reading in between the lines I think this is the only conclusion somebody can draw from this thread

 

Somebody should write to the aerospace and motor racing fraternity and inform them that a few rifle shooters on this forum have decided steel is a better material to use when dealing with temperature of shall be say up to 1000 degrees C or so?

 

We should also inform them that they have been wrong in using carbon base structures for the last 15 - 20 years

 

We should also strongly advise them that they should abdondon the use of titanium and carbon fibre in any load bearing strucutres, suspension, drive train components and use STEEL instead............sorry "stainless steel" instead.............................

 

Stainless steel monoque

 

Stainless exhaust manifold

 

Stainless brake load bering structure

 

Stainless steel rear drive train casing

 

Stainless steel upper torsinal links

 

Stainless ,...................sorry shall I carry on?

 

Sorry it just does not cut

 

Somebody somewhere will get it right and sell it for a competitive market price it is only a matter of time - a titanium and carbon fibre structure moderator

 

Even from my limited experience of 16 years of motoring racing and production of racing exhaust system I have come across so many forms of material with low latent heat properties and high sheer factor and high tensile factors but not used on a daily basis. They have been used by research scientist for small run specialist projects funded by large organisation - more so in the last 10 years in motor racing which has stolen a lot of ideas from the aerospace industry.

 

Believe me gases from a speeding bullet is nothing compares to some of the environments these industry are dealing with. It is a matter of how many they can sell and and at what price.

 

sorry to go on but we must be open to new deveopments in the shooting sport otherwise we are always circulating the same rubbish

[ejg223]

If you drill carbon composite what do you use?? a steel drill

now who is stronger! stronger and stiffer!

Sometimes steel is handy.

edi

[auquhollie]

Guys,

Thanks for the replys. The points raised are fair enough, if it was just a weight thing then i would go for a T8. What i want is the looks and durability of the PES (slim and long lasting) with the weight of a steel T8. It has to have the make up of the PES were i can strip it down to clean it. Oh and not alluminium. I had a PES light weight mod made out of alli and with the hot gases and carbon residue it coroded over a 12 month period.

 

Titanium is not that soft/brittle as it is used in most aircraft landing gear.

 

If someone could built a carbon fibre mod then ide be on the waiting list for one of them....

 

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[eldon]

Londonhunter maybe there is two different thoughts in this one thread.

 

First steel is proven, the parameters are well known and people feel confident with it. The "stick with whats known and proven group."

 

Second space age materials maybe better but who knows all this technology and whats the cost. Is it marketable? If the price turned out to be double, £400 say who would buy it? We could call these "the lets use the technology group."

 

Who wants to be the guinea pig and try there luck with a carbon or whatever mod?

 

Maybe the word should be more appropriate or known rather than better or superior.

 

Formula one could create a sound mod out of some fancy gear for show etc but look at the investment and people involved, Stress engineers and fancy software programmes.

 

A few years ago I was involved in some wishbone and tie bar testing. One set was t 45 and one set was carbon fibre rods with bonded ali threaded ends. In the end we stuck with the metal version.

 

By the way, anybody using t 45 should ideally use S 515 sheetmetal for any flat sheet bits. There is a good supplier down birmingham way, I could find the details if anybody wants it.

[ejg223]

I had made a carbon wrapped mod for my 223 about ten years ago and

will try to make a carbon version for my 22-250 once I come up with a half decent

design. As London said the metall/ composite connection is a bit tricky and threading a

carbon tube is not trustworthy. Carbon just doesn't have the e-module or tesile strength of

good steel, but therefore it's so much lighter.

I'll put a helmet on when firing first time.

 

edi

[Guest northernchris]

Edi are you talking about Eldon Metals??? As you say they carry most grades ie 515,516 etc its cracking stuff to tig

[eldon]

Northern chris, isn't it Elmdon metals.

 

It is not related in any way to my username.

[Redfox]

Titanium does have some very nice properties and as has been pointed out, some very undesireable ones too. Stress cracking is one you dont want, it has to be "normalized" before working or machining and this only lasts for an hour before needing doing again!

Stainless steel will do what you want and can be light with sensible design.

Redfox

[Bambi-basher]

OK time to confess up, sitting here in front of me I have nearly £400 worth of Titanium and Carbon fibre I have been playing about building a titanium/carbon moderator for the last few months, (as some of you guys know). I use the term playing as in my mind that is what I am doing, a bit of a engineering fun if you like. The designs I have are my own so it will be interesting to see how we go, if some of you lads are right it could all blow up in my face.

 

One thing I will say that early indications are you are not going to see a massive saving in weight, for example a A-Tec weighs 500gms, getting a lot below 400gms safely will not be easy in moderators for medium calibre(non-magnum) stalking applications IMHO. As already said it is all well being light, but it first needs to be safe.

 

I have a small can type moderator made from conventional materials that weighs around 300gms but this is for 223.

 

Finding time is not easy as I keep have to go stalking and I am supposed to be renovating an old Victorian property we are living in, then having to go to Germany with my mate to the IWA competative fell running/training ect ect. Still I am in no rush.

 

The first all titanium production moderator was brought to the market in the US last November and I think there is now one if not maybe two more companies producing moderators in Ti. These are not cheap and are aimed at 5.6 NATO use with a M16 or derivative of. The thing is that none of these moderators are lighter than the two A-tec moderators that I am familar with:- the standard over barrel and the new CMM A-tec but price is a hell of a lot more.

 

If the ones I build work OK I will obviously put a post up, but if you never hear from me again you will know why.

 

All the best

 

B-b

[ejg223]

B-b,

300g for a 223 is very good already.

One place to save weight is adjust strength and wall sections of baffles

according to position. First baffle takes a huge thump, after that the baffles

can be reduced quite a bit. even on an a-tec one could shave off a bit of weight.

Less weight could also mean higher temp (less mass to soak up).

Anyway looking forward to seeing your design. I'm just stuck in the other project and

will not get to my mod that soon, but will order high temp resin soon, do you need some?

edi

[Bambi-basher]

B-b,

300g for a 223 is very good already.

One place to save weight is adjust strength and wall sections of baffles

according to position. First baffle takes a huge thump, after that the baffles

can be reduced quite a bit. even on an a-tec one could shave off a bit of weight.

Less weight could also mean higher temp (less mass to soak up).

Anyway looking forward to seeing your design. I'm just stuck in the other project and

will not get to my mod that soon, but will order high temp resin soon, do you need some?

edi

 

Yes it is light but I am not sure how well it will last as I have not tested it properly yet, OK “fools rush in were the devil fears to tread” maybe?

 

Yep I think might be interested in some high temp resin not sure which way I am gooding to jump at the minute I will PM you.

 

Talking about temperature, one thing about Ti is it is a comparable poor conductor of heat not a good thing on a moddy.

 

A bit of useless information for you, the first patent on a moderator/silencer was taken out by Henry Maxim in 1903………………….the inventor of the machine gun. The baffles in a T8 look quite like a simplified version of his original baffles.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b