MOD range qualification

[Streeker59]

Just a heads up chaps on the latest from my man in the know...

MY source, an NRA official tells me that shooter qualification is on the way. At the moment 1 & 200 yds are safe but beyond will be a different matter.

Before a shooter will be able to get down on the firing line and start shooting, he/she will have to prove that thier rifle is zeroed in for the distance at which they are shooting. Now thats not a prob for TR's with aperture sights as you can simply move the vernier to the marked distance.

Those of us with scoped rifles, will have to provide written proof to your club RO that your scope setting is correct for the distance. No prob if you have BDC turrets but if not it could be a prob.

So if like me you keep a notebook with your scope turret settings for each distance and each bullet/powder combo, you'll be able to provide written proof.

Even pencil jottings on the scope body as some do or leupold tape turrets with your load info written on them will do just fine. So long as you can provide written evidence on the firing line you'll be ok.

Varmint and mildot reticle scopes with standard turrets will scrape by as you can still show a setting of sorts and explain to the RO which portion of the reticle you will be using for any given distance and load combo. Just make sure you have a written record of it.

This is the price we pay for the MOD upping the the Muzzle energy limits after they scared the pants off us last year when they said nothing more potent than a GAT gun could be used on MOD ranges.

My man couldn't say when this is coming in as the finer points are still being wrangled over but it will be this year i'm told.

 

I would like to ad that this post has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that i'm selling a scope with BDC turrets on this very forum.....

[Alycidon]

Thanks for that, food for thought.

 

A

[John MH]

The flavour of your post above is broadly correct but the detail is yet to be worked out, the checking zero requirement may only specifically apply to rifles in calibres above the proposed 4500J ME limit. What is going to happen is that civilians using MOD Ranges must be able to demonstrate that they have a "Safe System" in place to ensure that all rounds fired down range will be caught by the stop butt and will not encroach on the limits of the Range Danger Area trace.

 

What the “Safe System” is going to be has yet to be finalised but is likely to include a requirement to establish a zero at a distance closer to the stop butt (may be 200 yards) before moving back to longer distance; the exact details of what, how, when and the practicalities etc have not yet been agreed between the NRA or MOD.

 

I don’t think it unreasonable for a shooter to demonstrate that what he aims his rifle at he is able to hit, it’s about ensuring that you have identified your target and know what is behind it; something I suspect all varmint shooters should understand and embrace.

 

Having seen some of the proposed accuracy demands when proving/testing your zero (12” group at 200 yards) I doubt there are many shooters here that won’t be able to satisfy that requirement, as for your come ups as you move back they can easily be worked out from ballistic tables and data books.

[l4oth]

I presume this will not apply to Field Firing Ranges?

[John MH]

I presume this will not apply to Field Firing Ranges?

Correct

[Redfox]

JohnMH what and when with the new ME limits if you know please?

Redfox

[John MH]

Copied from NRA Website News Section

 

Muzzle Energy Update - 19 February 2008

As you are all aware the negotiations with the MoD have gone well and the Muzzle Energy limits have been raised to 4500J which accommodates most of you when shooting on MoD ranges.

We are presently trying to finalise a formal agreement between ourselves and the MoD so that we know categorically what is required by each party. As you are all aware the devil is in the detail.

 

I am however conscious that you are all concerned about deadlines and making sure you are compliant with requirements in time for the next shooting season. To give you an element of comfort we have mutually agreed with the MoD that although the requirements for civilian shooters effectively kick-in as of 1 April 2008, we have until 1 January 2009 to complete arrangements. (The one exception to this rule is the need to introduce new procedures to allow those who wish to shoot over 4500J up to 7000J to do so, with immediate effect from 1 April 2008. Special training has already begun to equip RCOs to oversee the new zeroing procedure and the agreed procedures will be notified to you in the near future.)

 

This allows you and us some flexibility to get things as nearly right as we possibly can, at the first attempt. As of 1 April 2008 there will be an incremental introduction of the new requirements and systems required by the MoD to keep you shooting. At the same time as unforeseen issues arise we can tailor requirements by further negotiations with the MoD, thus ensuring we are as near compliant as possible for 1 January 2009.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Glynn Alger

Secretary General

 

Muzzle Energy Agreement with the MoD - 14 Jan 08

 

As you are aware the MoD, as a result of looking at Muzzle Energy rates for the new .338 sniper rifle, made a proposal in October 2008 to ban the use of all ammunition with a muzzle energy (ME) exceeding 3800J.

The way the military assess the safety of ranges is to feed the relevant data into a computer which then fires millions of rounds on a virtual reality range, which then estimates how many rounds could leave the range. A decision is then made as to whether the appropriate safety criteria are met or not. Initial predictions led the military to limit the use of all ammunition whose ME exceeded 3800J. Effectively, they had banned the majority of civilian shooters from using MoD ranges.

 

The NRA only became aware of the MoD concerns when we were informed that there were some difficulties at Altcar in the last week of October. The National Rifle Association immediately began to negotiate with the MoD as a matter of urgency, pointing out that the revised ME limit effectively banned all cadets and military snipers as well as most civilians.

 

A series of meetings took place between the Association and the MoD with the aim of keeping civilians shooting on military ranges. Initially the authorities were intransigent about allowing civilian shooters to shoot ammunition that exceeded 3800J muzzle energy. They were insisting that a series of measures be put in place to ensure that whatever was fired there was no chance that a bullet would either miss the stop butt and leave the range in free flight or, even worse, ricochet off the range floor and leave the range danger area in a totally unpredictable direction.

 

The Association argued against the muzzle energy reduction and the necessity to change on the basis that there was no proven problem based upon accident statistics.

 

At this point one has to realise, as the NRA did, that the MoD are managed not by the military but by Civil Servants, who are 'risk averse'. They have been brought up in a culture of Service Level Agreements, Risk Assessments, Health and Safety and have an adversity to any chance of Civil Litigation.

 

The view that strongly came across was that unless civilians were willing to meet the same or similar conditions as placed upon the military to use MoD ranges there would be a general restriction put in place which would effectively put an end to most fullbore shooting.

 

The discussions between the NRA and the MoD were lengthy and complex, with them setting the problems and us having to offer solutions. As a result of our determination to meet their needs, they gradually became more comfortable with our proposals and accepted most, if not all, of our opinions on key issues.

 

The most important matter was to get the MoD to reconsider raising the ME to a level that would allow most shooters to continue using MoD ranges.

 

In early December, having re-examined the problem, the MoD agreed to an ME of 4500J, thus allowing most shooters to continue to use military ranges without the need for special safety procedures. In particular Black Powder and Muzzle Loaders were excluded through negotiation from the whole Muzzle Energy issue.

 

However the MoD is still insistent upon general conditions being in place to guarantee the safety and competency of all people shooting on their ranges, the details of which will be released in the near future.

 

To meet the MoD requirements (with little notice) we have had to create the procedures, and write or re-write course material, to ensure that by the beginning of the new season you will all be in a position to shoot as usual, albeit possibly with revised zeroing procedures.

 

The National Rifle Association has worked very hard and has been successful in keeping you all shooting, some as before, some under special conditions relating to the use of ammunition whose ME exceeds 4500J.

 

The NRA has had to accept full responsibility for all civilians who shoot on MoD ranges, in terms of their training, competence and behaviour, to be able to reach agreement with the MoD. This is not a position we sought but in the interests of you all, and the future of fullbore shooting, we have had to accept the challenge.

 

Following a MoD meeting on 10 January 2008 the ME of 4500J was agreed, in addition to the general and special conditions allowing civilians to shoot on MoD ranges. Finalisation of the entries for JSP 403 Volume 1 (Responsibilities, Authorisation, Maintenance and Inspection of Land Ranges) will take place in April 2008.

 

Glynn Alger

Secretary General

 

Still waiting for the detail.

 

John MH

[Redfox]

Thanks very much for that

Redfox

[Alycidon]

System of a closer zero proof sounds quite reasonable, I cant see to many people objecting to that.

 

A

[Streeker59]

"(The one exception to this rule is the need to introduce new procedures to allow those who wish to shoot over 4500J up to 7000J to do so, with immediate effect from 1 April 2008. Special training has already begun to equip RCOs to oversee the new zeroing procedure and the agreed procedures will be notified to you in the near future.) "

 

I find this line interesting. I'm an NRA RCO and i've not been approached with regard to any sort of special training to enable me to deal with rifle calibers exceeding the 4500j mark.. Methinks a call to the NRA is in order...

[ds1]

I find it interesting.......and could be very good news with a 7K joule limit. That could open up Bisley and other MOD ranges to 338 Lapua. A very good thing.

 

David.

[Streeker59]

While i'm in a crap mood cos various parts i've ordered have yet to turn up, i might as well put my halfpence worth in about Bisley in case a member of this forum is an NRA official and can shed some light on a couple of Bisley issues. My Nra friend is very tight lipped when i get on my soap box.

Firstly.... The access road to short siberia is a disgrace. The pot holes are so deep now that only an SUV is unlikely to suffer suspension damage navigating the terrain. When i first asked why the NRA hadn't used tarmac, i was told that as Bisley camp was of special scientific interest, they were limited to the type of surface covering they could use. Mmm, well if that's the case, how come they could build a clay shooting complex on the old Shorts range? That little bit not of scientific interest? Or how about the Lord Roberts Centre?

Now i'm all for the NRA expanding it's facilities to improve it's income and cater for all aspects of the shooting sports. But why is the TR shooter the poor relation in all this? Twas once the backbone of Bisley.

The NRA sees little income from range hire in the winter except at weekends and even those days are poorly attended if the rain pours which is frequently.

I'm not talking 25 meter ranges here where the shooter is in a covered cosy enclosed range. I mean short siberia, century and stickledown. This is where us long range blighters suffer wind and rain on the firing point. Why cant some sort of cover be provided on the firing points? This facility might just pull a few more in during inclement weather.

Dont get me started on the quality of butts markers. If you're lucky you'll get a good one.. Methinks there is only one...

I've been down the butts on century many times over the years and the "kids" are an unruly mob more interested in thier Ipods than what's going on in the butts. Tick em off over the radio cos the hirer is sick of repeating message 4's and the next series of shots will be marked down to teach the hirer a lesson. I know this to be fact cos i've seen them do it!! There is no supervision in the butts except on major NRA official shoots.

Because of this, my club opts to use the electronic targets on century at 600 yds. The ruddy things are so expensive we can only afford AM only shoots instead of all day. To top that, the range office has no operating instructions for the radio boxes and to this date we have probs with them everytime we use them!!

Bisley ! For shooters sake, wake up and provide some customer service here. To a degree we are a captive audience cos so few ranges can offer the distances we can shoot at Bisley. Now someone on here is likely to tell me to stop bleating. If Bisley isn't good enough for me, i can go elsewhere.

Where can i go??? Bisley is 50 miles from me as it is.

Ok... I've vented my spleen.. i'm off to work now.....

[John MH]

While i'm in a crap mood cos various parts i've ordered have yet to turn up, i might as well put my halfpence worth in about Bisley in case a member of this forum is an NRA official and can shed some light on a couple of Bisley issues. My Nra friend is very tight lipped when i get on my soap box.

Firstly.... The access road to short siberia is a disgrace. The pot holes are so deep now that only an SUV is unlikely to suffer suspension damage navigating the terrain. When i first asked why the NRA hadn't used tarmac, i was told that as Bisley camp was of special scientific interest, they were limited to the type of surface covering they could use. Mmm, well if that's the case, how come they could build a clay shooting complex on the old Shorts range? That little bit not of scientific interest? Or how about the Lord Roberts Centre?

Now i'm all for the NRA expanding it's facilities to improve it's income and cater for all aspects of the shooting sports. But why is the TR shooter the poor relation in all this? Twas once the backbone of Bisley.

The NRA sees little income from range hire in the winter except at weekends and even those days are poorly attended if the rain pours which is frequently.

I'm not talking 25 meter ranges here where the shooter is in a covered cosy enclosed range. I mean short siberia, century and stickledown. This is where us long range blighters suffer wind and rain on the firing point. Why cant some sort of cover be provided on the firing points? This facility might just pull a few more in during inclement weather.

Dont get me started on the quality of butts markers. If you're lucky you'll get a good one.. Methinks there is only one...

I've been down the butts on century many times over the years and the "kids" are an unruly mob more interested in thier Ipods than what's going on in the butts. Tick em off over the radio cos the hirer is sick of repeating message 4's and the next series of shots will be marked down to teach the hirer a lesson. I know this to be fact cos i've seen them do it!! There is no supervision in the butts except on major NRA official shoots.

Because of this, my club opts to use the electronic targets on century at 600 yds. The ruddy things are so expensive we can only afford AM only shoots instead of all day. To top that, the range office has no operating instructions for the radio boxes and to this date we have probs with them everytime we use them!!

Bisley ! For shooters sake, wake up and provide some customer service here. To a degree we are a captive audience cos so few ranges can offer the distances we can shoot at Bisley. Now someone on here is likely to tell me to stop bleating. If Bisley isn't good enough for me, i can go elsewhere.

Where can i go??? Bisley is 50 miles from me as it is.

Ok... I've vented my spleen.. i'm off to work now.....

 

Some of what you say rings true, why not put pen to paper and write to the Managing Director of the National Shooting Centre - Jeremy Staples with your observations and ask for a reply, or even better write to the new Chairman of the NRA – Bill Richards. The NRA and the National Shooting Centre got it self into lots of financial difficulty a few years ago and is only now recovering so we should expect some improvements soon. As for Butt Markers, I shoot with the HRA and we mark our own targets, just can’t trust the average teenager to do a good job these days.