.220 swift help beginner questions

[^varmints^]

Hi all after looking at a wide rifle choices and caliber research i found a swift in good order, a rem vssf2.

 

what i want to know is can anybody help with these questions.

 

1) What range does a swift have over a .223

 

2) Is there much recoil more than .223

 

3) Some forums say they are louder than a .22-250, im not sure just asking.

 

4) whats a good moderator for the swift

 

5)why are they so unpopular in this country

 

6) Are they difficult to reload for i have limited experience reloading .223

 

7) I think it has a 1:14 barrel what does this mean. my .223 is 1:8

 

8) How much maitenace do they need over a .223

 

9) When practising with the swift how many rounds can you fire before getting a heat mirage , the .223 doesnt warm until 25, on a forum i read 10 shots and the barrel is steaming

 

regards

[jcampbellsmith]

I don't think I have ever fired a .220 Swift, although I have looked through a couple. The following is a good read - http://www.chuckhawks.com/220swift.htm

 

and taking out a month's subscription with Chuck is useful I think when researching new rifles. Nathan has some interesting observations too - http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.220+Swift.html

 

Regards JCS

 

 

[triggersqueezer]

q7 1 full twist every 8" likes heavy bullets 1 in 14 (1 twist every 14") likes light bullets .not so good in the wind

[gbal]

Hi all after looking at a wide rifle choices and caliber research i found a swift in good order, a rem vssf2.

 

what i want to know is can anybody help with these questions.

 

1) What range does a swift have over a .223

 

2) Is there much recoil more than .223

 

3) Some forums say they are louder than a .22-250, im not sure just asking.

 

4) whats a good moderator for the swift

 

5)why are they so unpopular in this country

 

6) Are they difficult to reload for i have limited experience reloading .223

 

7) I think it has a 1:14 barrel what does this mean. my .223 is 1:8

 

8) How much maitenace do they need over a .223

 

9) When practising with the swift how many rounds can you fire before getting a heat mirage , the .223 doesnt warm until 25, on a forum i read 10 shots and the barrel is steaming

 

regards

The swift can have more range-but the increased choice of bullet weights and especially barrel twists have reduced the once very clear advantage the swift had.The swift gained a rathe negative reputation in it's early days,as much due to misuse by shooters on too large game,but also less good components/barrels just like the 17 later,and swift was prone to stretching cases.This allowed the nearly as fast 22/250 to get way ahead in sales,and there are many many 22/250s in UK for every rare swift.The 22/250 is a good round.Swift too,but whether it really has a useable performance advantage of much more than 50-100 yards over the much developed 223 is arguable,except in the most skilled hands-and the skill comes from range and wind estimation-especially wind-the heavier bullets of the 223 give some advantage-but the error that arises from misjudging the wind several hundred yards away remains the problem-for all rifles,but more so for the lighter swift bullets,despite their initial speed advantage.Try working out what an error of 4mph in judging wind speed will mean-and try judging wind speed 400 yards away! You might be shooting eg 80g bullets in a 223,but you will not be in a swift-you will be with 55g-and that makes some difference-unless of course you rebarrel your swift,which you will do a little earlier than for 223,due to wear-no free lunches really! But a clear advantage to the swift-where you don't need it-sub 300 yards.Of course all the 224s have to give way to the 6mms-243 eg.(you won't find many 244 rems compared to the very popular 243 w for essentially marketing/barrel twist reasons,not cartridge inferiority).

Swift recoili as 22/250,and a little more than 223-but a fair bit less than eg 243.Any good cf moderator should be ok.Loudness is no less than 22/250 but close. It's not a cartridge for a complete beginner to reload,or use. In modern Swifts,maintenance is not much different-you will have to clean the barrel a bit more often,as copper build up still occurs as in any cf rifle.It's not a good idea to let any barrel heat up-there is more powder being burned,so swift will heat up faster-10 fast shots will heat any barrel!

Specialist cartridge,limited flexibility because of very limited barrel twist choices in factory rifles.Is the extra range-under good conditions- really useable ? Would a 2/250 do as well? Brass supply?So there are as ever,pluses and minuses.Don't be overseduced by 4000fps-as you may not be able to use it,or need to.( the 17 rem is 4000fps but can't compete with the 223 fast twist/heavier bullet beyond 350 yards.) It is a bit more challenging than the very well worked on 223.(note that it isn't possible to get eg 222 in fast twist in factory rifles-so the 222 now lags way way behind the 223-which has had so much development and choices introduced- in part due to the 223's military heritage.) Popularity can be affected by many factors,but the 223 is a fine cartridge with a lot of flexibility.It's not a 243 of course,which isn't a 6.5x47,which isn't etc etc...

The current popular Swift competitor is the new, very competent, 204 ruger.Check the ballistics,but as ever,ask yourself:can I shoot at 400+,and judge the wind well enough not to introduce the errors that mistakes in the wind(or range-laser will fix that)judgement introduce,but tables NEVER mention.If you possibly can,test fire any rifle you intend to purchase.

 

george

[gbal]

Hi all after looking at a wide rifle choices and caliber research i found a swift in good order, a rem vssf2.

 

what i want to know is can anybody help with these questions.

 

1) What range does a swift have over a .223

 

2) Is there much recoil more than .223

 

3) Some forums say they are louder than a .22-250, im not sure just asking.

 

4) whats a good moderator for the swift

 

5)why are they so unpopular in this country

 

6) Are they difficult to reload for i have limited experience reloading .223

 

7) I think it has a 1:14 barrel what does this mean. my .223 is 1:8

 

8) How much maitenace do they need over a .223

 

9) When practising with the swift how many rounds can you fire before getting a heat mirage , the .223 doesnt warm until 25, on a forum i read 10 shots and the barrel is steaming

 

regards

The swift can have more range-but the increased choice of bullet weights and especially barrel twists in other 22 cfs,but not the swift, have reduced the once very clear advantage the swift had.The swift gained a rathe negative reputation in it's early days,as much due to misuse by shooters on too large game,but also less good components/barrels just like the 17 later,and swift was prone to stretching cases.This allowed the nearly as fast 22/250 to get way ahead in sales,and there are many many 22/250s in UK for every rare swift.The 22/250 is a good round.Swift too,but whether it really has a useable performance advantage of much more than 50-100 yards over the much developed 223 is arguable,except in the most skilled hands-and the skill comes from range and wind estimation-especially wind-the heavier bullets of the 223 give some advantage-but the error that arises from misjudging the wind several hundred yards away remains the problem-for all rifles,but more so for the lighter swift bullets,despite their initial speed advantage.Try working out what an error of 4mph in judging wind speed will mean-and try judging wind speed 400 yards away! You might be shooting eg 80g bullets in a 223,but you will not be in a swift-you will be with 55g-and that makes some difference-unless of course you rebarrel your swift,which you will do a little earlier than for 223,due to wear-no free lunches really! But a clear advantage to the swift-where you don't need it-sub 300 yards.Of course all the 224s have to give way to the 6mms-243 eg.(you won't find many 244 rems compared to the very popular 243 w for essentially marketing/barrel twist reasons,not cartridge inferiority).

Swift recoili as 22/250,and a little more than 223-but a fair bit less than eg 243.Any good cf moderator should be ok.Loudness is no less than 22/250 but close. It's not a cartridge for a complete beginner to reload,or use. In modern Swifts,maintenance is not much different-you will have to clean the barrel a bit more often,as copper build up still occurs as in any cf rifle.It's not a good idea to let any barrel heat up-there is more powder being burned,so swift will heat up faster-10 fast shots will heat any barrel!

Specialist cartridge,limited flexibility because of very limited barrel twist choices in factory rifles.Is the extra range-under good conditions- really useable ? Would a 2/250 do as well? Brass supply?So there are as ever,pluses and minuses.Don't be overseduced by 4000fps-as you may not be able to use it,or need to.( the 17 rem is 4000fps but can't compete with the 223 fast twist/heavier bullet beyond 350 yards.) It is a bit more challenging than the very well worked on 223.(note that it isn't possible to get eg 222 in fast twist in factory rifles-so the 222 now lags way way behind the 223-which has had so much development and choices introduced- in part due to the 223's military heritage.) Popularity can be affected by many factors,but the 223 is a fine cartridge with a lot of flexibility.It's not a 243 of course,which isn't a 6.5x47,which isn't etc etc...

The current popular Swift competitor is the new, very competent, 204 ruger.Check the ballistics,but as ever,ask yourself:can I shoot at 400+,and judge the wind well enough not to introduce the errors that mistakes in the wind(or range-laser will fix that)judgement introduce,but tables NEVER mention.If you possibly can,test fire any rifle you intend to purchase.

 

george

[kent]

Its not a gun I should buy second hand unless it was so cheap and nice it was a viable re-barrel job, add in the difficulties of brass and the fact that there are many, many more .243 win / 22-250 rifles that have done very little for every nice swift on the shelf..........................

[^varmints^]

Its rem vssf shot 70 rounds mckillop bedded the rifle.

[kent]

Its rem vssf shot 70 rounds mckillop bedded the rifle.

 

Proven 70 rounds and cheap? At the right price I should buy it though I might need convincing why someone shot just 70 through it and sold it at a fair loss - after paying for bedding as well?- Very strange move IMO. Has the owner lost his ticket or his shooting? did it never shoot? has he money to burn?

[kent]

Some very interesting points, I think exactly the same when I see such advert.

 

Why,

Why,

Why,

 

If I don't get reasonable answers I start to think it won't shoot for sh#t.

 

Quite true but often I cannot keep my trap shut, saw a nice 6.5x55 a while back, like new Sako. Asked the seller why it was for sale and got the usual tales. Spotted a serious fault in the crown and mentioned it, wasn't up for sale no more later the very same day- should have just bought it and said nowt (bet it was one of those non-shooters)

[^varmints^]

Some very interesting points, I think exactly the same when I see such advert.

 

Why,

Why,

Why,

 

If I don't get reasonable answers I start to think it won't shoot for sh#t.

HI all thanks for the contribultion. the guy says hes lost his land and needs a walked up gun, i even spoke to the dealer and he give me the date the new rifle arrived on october last year. i wanted a .22-250 but the swift was substamtially cheaper and better condition. I have quizzed the seller to good extent, i hope to get it borescoped at the gunshop

[matchking]

I shoot a RG rifles 220 swift for foxes. It is the second swift i have owned the first one being a VSSF II . If it it is good nick and the barrel is o.k buy it if the money is right. The old 220 is a cracking round shoots flat,Hits hard and is accurate. Don't be put of by tales of barrel burners etc. Any rifle not properly looked after will have a knackered barrel. Buy a swift be proud to be a little bit different. Don't believe what your told about .20 calibres there girls guns

ATB Sean

[^varmints^]

I shoot a RG rifles 220 swift for foxes. It is the second swift i have owned the first one being a VSSF II . If it it is good nick and the barrel is o.k buy it if the money is right. The old 220 is a cracking round shoots flat,Hits hard and is accurate. Don't be put of by tales of barrel burners etc. Any rifle not properly looked after will have a knackered barrel. Buy a swift be proud to be a little bit different. Don't believe what your told about .20 calibres there girls guns

ATB Sean

I cant really comment on the swift vs the 204 ruger, but sure someone will come along soon, is the 204 ruger not a swift case necked down till a 20 cal?

[Akeld]

I cant really comment on the swift vs the 204 ruger, but sure someone will come along soon, is the 204 ruger not a swift case necked down till a 20 cal?

No, its based on the .222 Remington Magnum

[Laurie]

It's a superb varmint cartridge. The 1-14" twist limits you to 55gn bullets, but that's not an issue unless you've decided you really like 75gn A-Max performance or similar in your 1-8" twist .223 Rem. If you load it up to the max, some of the more fragile bullets are on their limit integrity wise. As one SAwift shooter told me - hit a blade of grass between muzzle and fox and the bullet disintegrates. An exagerration I'm sure, but you're pushing a 22 calibre out at a helluva velocity, only exceeded by a few wildcats like the .22 Middlestead.

 

It should be no more difficult to load than any similar cartridge. Cases do stretch and should be measured after each resizing and trimmed where needed. It's generally reckoned now that this was the cause of many instances of unexplained pressure spikes in which a previoulsy satisfactory load would first see enlarged groups followed by serious pressure signs.

 

The Swift WILL wear a barrel out a LOT faster than a 223 and a bit faster than a 22-250. It WILL heat the barrel up a LOT faster than your 223 if you shoot strings through it. It's a simple function of the amount of powder, hence superheated gas you're shoving up a small calibre bore. While you're using 24-26gn in a 223 and 34-39gn in a 22-250, nearly all 220 Sw loads run at a bit over 40gn. A 70% powder charge increase over 223 Rem doesn't reduce barrel life by a half, more like by three-quarters. If you like to practice a lot, you'll soon wear the barrel out. if you work up a load using the minimal number of shots and groups, let the barrel cool right down after shooting a single 5-round group, couple of 3-rounds, and just use it on foxes with ocassional sighting-in / load checks, well it's going to last a long time.

 

As far as 204 Ruger goes, it's as close to the ultimate US prairie-dog cartridge that you'll get. It almost matches 22-250 Rem ballistics while using 10-12gn lighter powder charges. Given the size of North American prairie ground squirrels and similar it packs far more retained energy at 400 yards than needed to kill them, spectacularly more often than not, it gets a lot more shots down the barrel in the sort of rapid string shooting these guys often use in a 'target-rich' environment before the rifle has to be put aside to cool down, gives a lot onger barrel life in this sort of use. It also has another huge plus that's not really an issue for Brit 'foxers' - the recoil is so light compared to even a 22-250, that the shooter can keep the scope on the target 'dog'. If he misses due to excessive holdover and/or incorrect aim-off for the wind, he'll see the fall of shot clearly. Most P-Ds will hang around scratching their heads after a near miss and a second shot is usually fatal! Shooting a 22-250 usually needs a mate to spot for you to see the fall of shot in this kind of varminting. I don't shoot foxes, but many of those I know who got a 204 when they first appeared have gone back to the .22-250. They feel the 204 sees more wind drift in real life field shooting than then the ballistics programs predict, and the other benefits that are important to the US P-D hunter are either much less valuable here or unimportant.

[^varmints^]

It's a superb varmint cartridge. The 1-14" twist limits you to 55gn bullets, but that's not an issue unless you've decided you really like 75gn A-Max performance or similar in your 1-8" twist .223 Rem. If you load it up to the max, some of the more fragile bullets are on their limit integrity wise. As one SAwift shooter told me - hit a blade of grass between muzzle and fox and the bullet disintegrates. An exagerration I'm sure, but you're pushing a 22 calibre out at a helluva velocity, only exceeded by a few wildcats like the .22 Middlestead.

 

It should be no more difficult to load than any similar cartridge. Cases do stretch and should be measured after each resizing and trimmed where needed. It's generally reckoned now that this was the cause of many instances of unexplained pressure spikes in which a previoulsy satisfactory load would first see enlarged groups followed by serious pressure signs.

 

The Swift WILL wear a barrel out a LOT faster than a 223 and a bit faster than a 22-250. It WILL heat the barrel up a LOT faster than your 223 if you shoot strings through it. It's a simple function of the amount of powder, hence superheated gas you're shoving up a small calibre bore. While you're using 24-26gn in a 223 and 34-39gn in a 22-250, nearly all 220 Sw loads run at a bit over 40gn. A 70% powder charge increase over 223 Rem doesn't reduce barrel life by a half, more like by three-quarters. If you like to practice a lot, you'll soon wear the barrel out. if you work up a load using the minimal number of shots and groups, let the barrel cool right down after shooting a single 5-round group, couple of 3-rounds, and just use it on foxes with ocassional sighting-in / load checks, well it's going to last a long time.

 

As far as 204 Ruger goes, it's as close to the ultimate US prairie-dog cartridge that you'll get. It almost matches 22-250 Rem ballistics while using 10-12gn lighter powder charges. Given the size of North American prairie ground squirrels and similar it packs far more retained energy at 400 yards than needed to kill them, spectacularly more often than not, it gets a lot more shots down the barrel in the sort of rapid string shooting these guys often use in a 'target-rich' environment before the rifle has to be put aside to cool down, gives a lot onger barrel life in this sort of use. It also has another huge plus that's not really an issue for Brit 'foxers' - the recoil is so light compared to even a 22-250, that the shooter can keep the scope on the target 'dog'. If he misses due to excessive holdover and/or incorrect aim-off for the wind, he'll see the fall of shot clearly. Most P-Ds will hang around scratching their heads after a near miss and a second shot is usually fatal! Shooting a 22-250 usually needs a mate to spot for you to see the fall of shot in this kind of varminting. I don't shoot foxes, but many of those I know who got a 204 when they first appeared have gone back to the .22-250. They feel the 204 sees more wind drift in real life field shooting than then the ballistics programs predict, and the other benefits that are important to the US P-D hunter are either much less valuable here or unimportant.

cheers laurie thanks makes it all a bit clearer, i have had trouble finding a good straight 204,22-250. i saw the rem vssf and i like remingtons as friends use them, i like the new technology and research into the 204 and i will in some point maybe own one in the future, the swift i intend to use on for roe as well. As it goes for recoil the .223 kicks a bit i have fired nothing bigger will the swift be noticably more. the only thing i would shoot other than foxes is crows, the swift is super flat from what i have read and coupled with a nightforce or sightron would be deadly to 270 yards, i wouldnt be confident enough to take a centrefire beyond 300 yards due to my inexperience of bullet drop and trajectory also that i havent got a large varmiting scope. The 223 has been a great practice rifle and it really likes 53gr vmax with 19.3gr vit n130. If the swift burns over 40 gr it will probably cost like a £1 a shot compared to powder frugal .223 at around 50p. Both have pros and cons is there anything else the .220 swift has in common in 223, is powder hard to find for them

[Laurie]

If the swift burns over 40 gr it will probably cost like a £1 a shot compared to powder frugal .223 at around 50p. Both have pros and cons is there anything else the .220 swift has in common in 223, is powder hard to find for them

 

 

No, it won't add as much as that - the bullet is still more expensive than the powder more often than not. You may need to think about bullet choice at Swift velocities on deer - they may be moving a bit too fast to hold together after penetrating at normal range shots. See what other people reckon are the 'tougher' varieties. I had thought of the all copper Barnes TSX models, but looking at their manual they need a 1-12" twist barrel (copper is lighter than lead+copper so the bullet is longer for any given weight, and it's bullet-length in relation to calibre that primarily determines the twist rate needed).

 

So far as powder goes, I've never loaded the 220, but an enthusiast for the cartridge I once met swore by IMR-4064, said nothing did as well in the cartridge, a good old traditional US stick powder. It'sd now available here again after years of absence. Czech Lovex SO62 is very similar (often sold / marked as AA-4064) andyou can get dealers from the importers Westlander Limited

 

http://www.westlander.co.uk/

 

Sierra loads generally show IMR-4064 and Alliant Re15 as the 'accuracy loads'. Hornady says they got best results using 55gn bullets and N140, H4895 or H. VarGet, so there is plenty of choice around.

 

On distances, yes it's a flat shooter. Running Sierra Infinity 6 for the cartridge using a 55gn Berger Varmint @ 3,700 fps and a 50gn Sierra BlitzKing at 3,900 fps the program recommends the following sighting-in distances to get a maximum point-blank range setting based on a 3-inch diameter kill zone:

 

55 Berger / 3900 fps sight-in @ 224 yards for 257 yards MPBR (224 yd sight-in = 1.3-inch high at 100yd; 0.75-inch high at 200yd for zeroing at either of these distances)

 

50gn BlitzKiung at 3,900 fps sight-in at 239 yards for 275yd MPBR (239yd sight-in = 1.2-inches high at 100; 1-inch high at 200yd)

 

Max PBR sight-in means that for a 3-inch dia kill-zone (about right for fox + crow?) the bullet won't move more than 1.6 inches above or below the aiming mark out to the PBR distance.

 

Hope this helps.

[^varmints^]

Thanks laurie I think theres data with the gun of blc2 with 55 gr vmax the gun is supposed to be doing this at 3850 fps

[Norfolknbullets1]

Swifts there not for every one but I have had may years of great Survice from my old Remington 700 on my second barrel proberbly wants another new one in the not to distante future. If you want a point and press 300 yard gun when your bullet hits before you here the bang well it's maybe the thing for you. I have found cleaning is key no more than 20 rounds between cleaning. If you are going to reload in my experience swifts don't like bullets seating to the lands in fact they like quit big jumps ( just what I have found I'm not saying this is correct for all rifles) there are two loads I found to be very accurate 1/ vit n160 46 grains Norma case Remington 91/2 primer with nosler 50 gr btv and 2/ reloaded 15 39 grains Winchester nickel case Remington 91/2 primer with nosler 50 gr btv

Obviously work up to these different guns are going to have more pressure than others. Hope this has been a little help

 

[gbal]

cheers laurie thanks makes it all a bit clearer, i have had trouble finding a good straight 204,22-250. i saw the rem vssf and i like remingtons as friends use them, i like the new technology and research into the 204 and i will in some point maybe own one in the future, the swift i intend to use on for roe as well. As it goes for recoil the .223 kicks a bit i have fired nothing bigger will the swift be noticably more. the only thing i would shoot other than foxes is crows, the swift is super flat from what i have read and coupled with a nightforce or sightron would be deadly to 270 yards, i wouldnt be confident enough to take a centrefire beyond 300 yards due to my inexperience of bullet drop and trajectory also that i havent got a large varmiting scope. The 223 has been a great practice rifle and it really likes 53gr vmax with 19.3gr vit n130. If the swift burns over 40 gr it will probably cost like a £1 a shot compared to powder frugal .223 at around 50p. Both have pros and cons is there anything else the .220 swift has in common in 223, is powder hard to find for them

Recoil is a little more-maybe 15%. It's probably just enough more to lose sight picture after your shot.Do NOT use varmint bullets on deer lest you inflict very severe surface wounds.You will need to develop a separate deer load with appropriate bullets-and no,they will probably not have the same point of impact,but you can click your scope accordingly.The swift is admirably flat at the distances you mention-see laurie's data etc.Good scope helps a lot-but the real skill and difficulty always comes from wind judgement-remember,the wind several hundred yards away will probably not be doing what you think/windmeter says it is doing at the muzzle.You will make errors,and these translate into misses.A windmeter and laser rangefinder are great aids-I'd say indispensible-the ballistic charts assume perfect knowledge of wind/distance-you will not have that,but something in the swift category reduces the effect of errors,perhaps to a near miss!300 yards though should be doable.

george