204

[LVSF 243]

Hi new to the site.If you could only have one rifle what would it be a 204 or 223 for varminting

[1967spud]

Hi and welcome to the site

 

.223 its a dual role rifle for small deer species as well in the right place

[TonyH]

Hi new to the site.If you could only have one rifle what would it be a 204 or 223 for varminting

 

Since you specify varminting I'd have to say one of the .204" chamberings. The classic varmint rifle is in a small high-velocity flat-shooting calibre that propels bullets of around 40-55 grains, and the 20-cals fit this to perfection, with better bullet BCs weight for weight compared with .224" equivalents. Take your pick of 20 Vartarg, 20Tac/Prac, 20BR and others, depending on what bullet weight or distance you're interested in. The .223 is probably the world's most widely used varminting cartridge and if you wanted to use only factory ammo that would be the best choice. But if you're going to handload, and want everything just right, with optimum ballistics, go for a 20.

Why do you ask? Thinking of buying a rifle?

Tony

[LVSF 243]

I have a 223 remington vs and a lvsf 243 for foxing.I am thinking of getting a 204 for varminting and selling my 223. I do homeload cheers tony. :unsure:

[achosenman]

FWIW, I started with .223 and then tried the Ruger 204.

I’ve gone back to 223. I’d forgotten how good was without all the fuss. The 204 will cope very well for short/medium range. It will start to struggle at long range, as I found out trying to hit targets that I routinely hit with a 223. By long range I mean 450m out to around 650m. The 20 cal will bleed off the velocity at an alarming rate. That means the 223 will get there at the same time pretty much for long range. Drop is a known, so is easy to dial in; windage is the killer to get right.

 

For example, some stats from my two rifles using handloads at my home range using the same environmental data.

 

204: 24 inch barrel.

40grn Berger .115 G7 BC at 3885fps = 1340ftlbs muzzle.

 

300m = 2454fps = 535ftlbs with 11.5 inches drift for 10mph at 90 degrees.

Flt time = .318 secs

 

600m =1358fps=164ftlbs with 61 inches drift for 10mph at 90 degrees.

Flt time= .858 secs.

 

.223: 24 inch barrel

75grn Berger .217 G7 BC at 2921fps= 1421ftlbs muzzle.

 

300m= 2235fps=832ftlbs with 8.51 inches drift for 10mph at 90 degrees.

Flt time=- .385 secs.

 

600m=1647fps=452ftlbs with 39.49 inches drift for 10mph at 90 degrees.

Flt time=.898 secs.

 

 

ATB

[247sniper]

I don't know what your on about mate ? The .204 ruger is far superior in the wind and out to 600 yards then any .223 ? Higher velocities with higher BC bullets. You have your BC wrong for your .204 40 grain bullet to fella!

 

Can anyone else with experience of these calibars confirm what I am saying ?

 

Steve.

[achosenman]

I don't know what your on about mate ? The .204 ruger is far superior in the wind and out to 600 yards then any .223 ? Higher velocities with higher BC bullets. You have your BC wrong for your .204 40 grain bullet to fella!

 

Can anyone else with experience of these calibars confirm what I am saying ?

 

Steve.

 

Sorry mate you need to go and read Berger’s web site. The BC I used for the 204 comes from Berger themselves. It’s on their web site. I used that because when I tested the bullet over two Chronographs it yielded .113 from my rifle.

 

Remember we are talking about G7 BC’s and not G1’s.

 

ATB

[Bunny Shooter]

I don't know what your on about mate ? The .204 ruger is far superior in the wind and out to 600 yards then any .223 ? Higher velocities with higher BC bullets. You have your BC wrong for your .204 40 grain bullet to fella!

 

Can anyone else with experience of these calibars confirm what I am saying ?

 

Steve.

 

+1 to above

 

OP I have a .204 for varminting.

 

Had a few .223's.

 

.204 is far superior in every way.

[achosenman]

OK guys, don’t take my word for it, it's just my experiance with my rifles and hand loads. It’s no problem. But I too have both, and have and do use them for long range. The bullet BC’s are here

 

Let me know where I have gone wrong and tell me what you think the the BC's should be.

 

ATB

[247sniper]

OK guys, don’t take my word for it, it's just my experiance with my rifles and hand loads. It’s no problem. But I too have both, and have and do use them for long range. The bullet BC’s are here

 

Let me know where I have gone wrong and tell me what you think the the BC's should be.

 

ATB

It's the G1's you want to be looking at matey. The Berger 40 grain,s have a BC of 0.225, which is low compared to the 40 grain V-Max 0.275 or the 39 grain SBK - 0.287.

 

The .204 launches higher BC bullets at greater speeds = flatter shooting, less wind drift, maintain verlocitys and energy down range longer. It's as simple as science.

 

Can be confusing though

 

Atb

Steve.

[achosenman]

I know what you mean, it makes my head hurt.

 

FWIW here is the definition for the G coefficients’.

 

Army BRL, Aberdeen Proving Ground.

(smoothed by the BRL and adjusted to fit firing tests)

G1.1 -S.A.A.M.I Standard model, Flat Based with 2 caliber (blunt) nose ogive

G5.1 -For Moderate (or low base) Boat Tails -7° 30' Tail Taper with 6.19 caliber tangent nose ogive

G6.1 -For flat based "Spire Point" type bullets -6 .09 caliber secant nose ogive

G7.1 -For "VLD" type Boat Tails -long 7° 30' Tail Taper with 10 caliber tangent nose ogive

G8.1 -Flat base with similar nose design to G7 -used for the US M2 152 gr .30 cal bullet, close to G6

 

The reason Berger went over to G7 was that the ballistic profile proved inaccurate at long range when G1 is used for obvious reasons.

 

However the G1 coefficients’ for the 22 bullets are as follows

75grn=.423

80grn=.445

80.5grn= .454

90grn= .551

 

ATB

[247sniper]

However the G1 coefficients’ for the 22 bullets are as follows

75grn=.423

80grn=.445

80.5grn= .454

90grn= .551

 

ATB

 

These quoted figure are for match bullet. They are a totally different thing again.

 

The thing is you can get heavy weight .22 bullets like the onces you mention , but the massive loss in verlocitys for a higer BC bullet counter acts what some people are trying to do. ( an accurate ,flat shooting, less wind effected round). What you said would work fine if you were shooting targets at a range say 300, 500 an a 1000 yards where you already have sight marks, but targets appearing at 420 , 560 yards in the field, would be somewhat a guess of if you had a very accurate and consistent loads ou could dial in.

 

I could stabile the 55 grain Berger with a BC of 0.381 through my fast twist .204 at pretty quick speeds, that's quit impressive. !

 

Basically by using heavy weight .22 bullets you sacrifice verlocitys thus resulting in a rainbow trajecterie and agian increased wind drift.

 

Hope this helps

 

Steve.

[achosenman]

Steve you are correct about rainbow trajectories. As I mentioned, that can be mitigated, depending on what you’re doing e.g. lamping. I would never claim the 223 is as flat shooting as the 204, but to hit a small target at 300m plus, you will be doping for both calibres, so does it matter if you add 4 clicks or 7?

 

There is a cut-off point at which the drift will increase. The 223 can launch the mentioned projectiles above the cut-off point.

 

E.g. a 90grn vld 22 using a 1:7 twist will out perform the 204 55grn launched at 3300 fps which is maximum for the rifle with Quick Load. (Since QL is tweaked for the rifle I have, it will be very close) Additionally to stabilize a 55grn in a 204 I would need a 1:8 twist, so the 1:12 standard twist isn’t going to hack it, but this is hypothetical. Anyway after running the numbers, the 90grn vld (I can’t shoot it either with my barrel) drifts around 5 inches less at 600m when compared to the 55grn 20 cal. This is starting the 90grn from a muzzle velocity of around 2717fps.

 

In the real world, the bullets I use are 75-80grn because that’s what the rifle was built to use. It is a purpose built long range custom job that weighs just less than 15lbs all up. I had it built because when I stepped back to 400m+ the 204 I have fell flat on its face. The bullets are also a pain to get, falling as they do under the FAC expanding bullet restriction. OTOH Berger recommends the 75vld for targets and states on the box “excellent for varmints” Therefore I can get them through the post…result.

 

As I see it the trouble is the 204 was designed to beat the 22-250 for velocity with less powder. It is a stunning success. The sales teams then sold it to the public as Kryptonite. However they very carefully selected the parameters for comparison that were used in the sales spiel, restricting themselves to similar SD 22 bullets. Their claims are correct within those parameters. They conveniently ignored certain other bullets because things look a little different.

 

As to the BC thing, my understanding is that all companies state G1 BC’s. Some are optimistic to say the least. Sierra use multiple BC’s as a fudge because the G1 does not apply to boat tail bullets. It is a method to get closer to real world trajectories. In my experience the G5 tends to be closer to what is actually seen, especially with Nosler Ballistic Tips, but the G5 number isn’t as sexy, so sales drop.

 

I would never claim the 223 is the best long range calibre by a long long way. I want a longer barrel life than the some calibres give so I’ll make do.

FWIW I find getting the wind call correct a challenge, not the drop. Therefore I choose the highest G7 BC I can launch because a miss is a miss whether it's left or right.

 

ATB

[sir-slots-alot]

Here's my twopenny's worth.

 

The 223 is without question the most vestitile. Several manufacturers produce rifles with 8 or 9 twist as standard which allows shooters to easily experiment with the heavier range of bullets which have a better BC than any 20 cal bullets at present. The same 223 rifle will also shoot lighter bullets with precision at normal foxing ranges.

 

223 barrel life is excellent - 223's still shoot really well after many thousands of rounds ( if looked after ). I suspect the 204 will be a lot less.

 

204 - For short to medium ranges - the superior ballistics of the 204 wins hands down. It simply shoots a higher BC bullet faster.

But once you start reaching out to 500 yrds to 600 yrds - The big 22 bullets are better wind cheaters and retain more impact energy.

 

Comparision between 204 and 223 - both zero'd for 100 yrds in 10 mph cross wind ( 223 was my own load )

 

223 - bullet 75grn Amax BC - 0.435 - Muzzle Velocity 2920fps

 

Target 600 yrds - - Drop = 80.3 ins - - Drift = 30.8 ins - - Impact energy = 524 fpe

 

 

204 - bullet 39grn SBK BC - 0.287 - Muzzle Velocity 3850fps

 

Target 600 yrds - - Drop = 52.3 ins - - Drift = 35.8 ins - - Impact energy = 310 fpe

 

 

If the intention is varminting at regular distances - the 204 would seem a good option - Just my opinion.

 

 

 

ATB

Alan

[TonyH]

I find my 20Tac superior ballistically to the .223 not only in theory, but in practice: the 20-cal advantage is not just a marketing scam. I researched carefully before having my .223 re-barrelled, and I'm entirely happy that I have the results I anticipated. Bullet weight for weight (around 40gr) the 20 shoots flatter, and is very accurate besides: the 39gr Sierra BK and 40gr Nosler BT have high BC, excellent accuracy, and superb terminal performance. I wouldn't use Bergers, since although they have a fine reputation for accuracy they're never going to shoot as flat as pointy polymer-tipped bullets and the terminal effect can never be so extreme. I wouldn't use big heavy super-BC bullets in small 223-sized cases, either: when I want to shoot heavy bullets at long range, I'll shoot them out of a 22BR (or maybe a 20BR...).

The .223 is excellent, but in a varmint rifle for small varmints at average distances, the medium-cased 20s are better. Call me old fashioned but as a varminting traditionalist I look for flat trajectory and high velocity: zapping varmints with big bullets that don't blow up and which arrive with the trajectory of a mortar shell just isn't so much fun.

Tony

[LVSF 243]

My rifle is to be used for varmint shooting on farms. Not in to paper shooting so which one 204 or 223. :unsure:

[achosenman]

My rifle is to be used for varmint shooting on farms. Not in to paper shooting so which one 204 or 223. :unsure:

 

Only you can make that choice mate.

 

I use mine for long range crows etc on a farm as well as long range practice on paper.

 

We have debated the pros and cons and each shooter has made a choice depending on what they need or want. You can try one and if it doesn’t suite, get something else…it’s what we do.

 

What else would you spend your cash on?

 

ATB

[spongejo]

mate i love my ruger 204 its a great tool, ive shot 223, 22.250 there all good, i only shoot corvids and foxes with mine.

ollie

[TonyH]

My rifle is to be used for varmint shooting on farms. Not in to paper shooting so which one 204 or 223. :unsure:

 

I think you've received some pretty useful advice by now, in fact more detailed than is usually the case. Didn't you read it? And there's lots more out there, a couple of mouse-clicks away.

Tony

[sir-slots-alot]

Your decision - so decide on the things that are a priority to you.

 

223 - Better barrel life - more versitility - more bullet choice - easier to get hold of ammo / reloading bits.

 

204 - Give a flatter trejectory - has better ballistics good choice of bullets

 

 

 

Just bare in mind - at 300 yrds the 204 will be droppping somewhere around 6 inches - - and the 223 about 9 inches.

 

ATB

Alan

[palo]

Will the 75 and 80 grain 22 calibre bullets fit in a standard factory 223 rifle magazine like a remington, tikka, sako, howa etc ?

[LVSF 243]

Cheers lads for the advice.At the end of the day its only money. I think i will get a 204 as well and keep the 223.See how it works out.

[achosenman]

Will the 75 and 80 grain 22 calibre bullets fit in a standard factory 223 rifle magazine like a remington, tikka, sako, howa etc ?

 

Palo I can’t answer your specific question since it can depend on your throat configuration and what your chosen bullet jump to lands is etc.

 

Maybe one of the resident smiths could give you a more precise answer, FWIW I us an AI 223 mag with loads of room to spare.

 

ATB

[sir-slots-alot]

Will the 75 and 80 grain 22 calibre bullets fit in a standard factory 223 rifle magazine like a remington, tikka, sako, howa etc ?

 

 

They wont fit inside Tikka or Sako mags - without losing loads of case capacity

 

Single feed only - one of the reason I opted for the 22.250 as a platform to lauch them. That and they do 3360 fps

[palo]

They wont fit inside Tikka or Sako mags - without losing loads of case capacity

 

Single feed only - one of the reason I opted for the 22.250 as a platform to lauch them. That and they do 3360 fps

 

Thanks. I thought there might be a problem with powder space.

My mate rebarreled his 22-250 with a 1/8 twist barrel and is getting great results with the 75 amax and 80 bergers.