MarinePMI

The Tikka T-1x is another option.

First off, California is not really a good representative of the US, broadly.  I know, I live here (southern California, aka "SoCal").  The rules here are geared more towards what I saw in the UK (conflicting, contradictory and nonsensical "feel good" laws that accomplish nothing), and are pretty non-typical of most other states.  It is very clique'ish and peer pressure is very prevalent (as noted above).  It's more of a herd mentality out here.

Texas is probably close to more what the US typically is like, but with the exception that most land there is owned privately.  Wyoming, Montana and Idaho tend to be more "Free and Liberty oriented", where everyone tends to do what ever they want (within reason), so long as they aren't infringing someone else's basic rights.  Don't get me wrong, it comes with it's own challenges, but I prefer it that way.  But, with freedom and liberty comes personal responsibility.  Everyone is typically armed.  As such, things can (and often do) get resolved on their own, by the individuals themselves.  Sometimes that can get out of hand...but that is what you have if you want freedom and liberty.  These three states also have massive amounts of public land (a significant part of Idaho is national forest, open to anyone to hunt, hike or fish if they have a license).  No nanny state there.  But with that said, people step off into the wilderness and are never heard from again, all the time.  It happens, but that's their responsibility to be safe, and have to deal with whatever they run into, on their own.  They'll be no one to ask for help, or will there be expectation of any help.  If you can live with that, then the US (and it's wide open spaces) will fit you well in these states.   But if you're looking for a specific standard to which everyone will live...then not so much.

I recall driving down a road with "Andrew" one year, and going past a dirt road off the highway, laden with all manner of anti-semitic and Nazi signs plastered all over the fence posts.  I looked over and got the "Yeah, the guy's a whacko, but he keeps to himself look", and a shrug.  That's the kind of freedom we're talking about; you do you, just don't mess with me.  <shrug>  Some can't accept that...

As to the "roughly 60% of US homes don't own guns"...yeah that's true.  But you have to remember, more than half the US population live in the large cities (which typically are not gun friendly at all, nor do they have access to facilities to use them, typically).   Also, while the number of households with guns have declined, the number owned by the households has increased dramatically.  We still have something like 3 guns for every person in the US owned by 40% of the households.  Think about that for a second.  Add to that that the most popular rifle is...the AR-15.  In the US, only the receiver is controlled (not the barrel) and we have no proofing requirements.  As such, the modularity of the AR has made it so receivers (made cheaply on any CNC mill) are incredibly cheap and prolific, and the barrels and such can be shipped directly to your door, for assembly.  AR's are every where (hell I own more than half a dozen myself in various configurations and calibers).  Guns are literally part of our culture, just like a car or bicycle or a fishing pole.

As to burglaries, people often are at home.  In fact, our liberal media chooses to minimize it's reporting (as does yours), but the Federal government does track it.  It's hard to say how many burglaries have been stopped/prevented with a firearm, since it's impossible to estimate things that never happen, or are resolved without the  police ever being called, but the estimates range from as low as 80,000 a year, all the way up to 2M a year (crimes, not just burglaries).  I personally have had to brandish a weapon twice while living in a not so nice neighbor years ago.  <shrug>  Perps/thugs get shot all the time doing stupid that which promotes growth and vigour thinking they've chanced upon some prey, only to realize what they actually happened on, was a wolf in sheep's clothing. 

Think about it.  The US has been at war for the last 15+ years.  We have a lot of young men and women who know how to use a firearm, and see what happens when there is no law.  And they all are familiar with the AR-15.  Never mind our access to military grade NV and thermal gear (google NV hog hunting on YouTube).

The introduction of IDPA, 3-Gun and PRS style shooting has only made these guns even more popular .  And with popularity, comes the ability to make a profit, and so ranges, training, products; they're all increasing every year here.  I think we will see (in retrospect) that the buying and trianing of firearms is actually increasing dramatically in the US.

Finally (sorry for the long diatribe), as stated above, most of the US is a pretty safe place.  The gang bangers and violence that the MSM and EU media love to highlight about the US is mostly over blown.  It's like thinking Israel is constantly getting bombed or having rockets dropped on it.  It does happen, but it is still a  relatively rare thing.  The US is a huge country, that I think most Uk citizens don't truly understand (the size difference).  I could drive from London, all the way up to Northern Scotland in about 12 hrs (when I lived there).  That's how long it takes to drive across Texas (east/west), at 80mph.  And that is one (albeit large) state.  Remember, the US covers 4 time zones, and goes from basically middle England down through a third of Africa.  It's huge, and as such there is a very wide variety of cultures and ways of life here.  

At any rate, sorry for the epistle.  Must be the covid lock down driving me batty.

It's definitely a difference in perspective and attitude (good, and bad). 

I have to say, I would struggle to live under some of the constraints that you guys happily contend with (firearms have to be locked up in a safe, can only have so much ammunition, have to have permission, etc.). That being said, parts of the US can be a bit more rough and tumble, both from the two legged animals, as well as the four legged ones.  And so, I think the US laws (and rights) evolved for a reason.  Sometimes it serves us well, other times it serves the nefarious types more.  After having lived in the UK briefly, I still wouldn't have it any other way in the US.  Just different horse for courses so-to-speak...

IOR are not popular in the US for two reasons:

1.  Their customer service is abysmal.

2.  The US long range optics market is saturated with good options at many different price points.  It's hard to compete as it is, and even harder with the burden of the first point.

For most Americans, Vortex, NF,  S&B, TT and ZCO get the nod for Tier1/2 glass.

Shandy beat me to it.  A mile really isn't that far anymore.  At least, not as daunting as say, 10 years ago.

That being said, I think 1 mile would be better for the UK folks to start with, as it would open up the field to more competitors.  This would allow for some critical mass to be built, before going 2 miles.  At least, that is how it worked here in the US.

So was Varget when it was first released in '96.  Turned out to be a very versatile powder (more than I think they imagined). I remember using it for .223 when it first came out thinking "Well damn, that works pretty good." after someone at the range telling me about it (the internet wasn't still widely used back then).

4 minutes ago, miki said:

I don't think Vargent is 'REACH' (Regulation (EC) 1907/2006 concerning the Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation, and restriction of CHemicals) compliant so (if it is available) it won''t be for long ...

Working up a load with a powder you may not be able to find again is not ideal ...

No, I don't think it is available in the UK anymore, hence mentioning RS50...

24.3 grs of XBR-8208 and a 75gr ELDM nets 2940fps out of my Tikka Varminter.

Varget (I believe RS50 is pretty close to it) is another go to powder here in the US for 75gr bullets in the .223.

IME, the average 25x top end power for LR (tactical) is due to a couple of reasons.

First off, when zeroing or going after really small targets a higher magnification does help.  That being said, most shoot somewhere in between 12-16x (on average) because field of view is important when performing PID (postive I. D.) of a target.

Too much power gives a shooter tunnel vision, and may have them firing on the wrong target without realizing it.  It also (high power) is much more susceptible to mirage, or the distortion of mirage to be more accurate (Snell's Law).  It is very easy to suddenly start missing high, and not realize it is because of mirage (hence the old saying "sun's up, sight's up...").

The other reason for the 25x fetish is (until recently) is was the capability of a 5x erector, which has been a standard for LR scopes for some time now.  Though admittedly, 6x and 7x erectors that are robust enough to withstand the rigors of tactical long range are coming on the market now.  I'm not an optics expert, so can not explain why, or how this came to be, or what new manufacturing techniques are allowing this, but they are coming out not (NF 7-35x and Leupold Mk5 7-35x for example).  As ELR becomes more popular, I think you will see more 35x top end scopes, but think 25x will continue to be a baseline standard for most.

IME, it really comes down to practical useable power, ruggedness and manufacturing practices as to why 25x seems to be the defacto baseline for most LR shooting.

JMTCW...

Not sure exactly what powder is available in the UK, but in the US, Varget, H-322, XBR-8208, CFE223 and BL(C)-2 are standard fare for the .223 with lighter bullets (55gr and below).  H-322 is a favorite of mine for 40's...

IME, CFE223 works well in .223 with lighter bullets (55gr and below), but with anything heavy (75gr ELDM) it just starts throwing buck shot patterns.  I'll be hitting life size steel rabbits at 540yds, then the next two will be flyers off to one direction or the other,  then the next two back on. The only thing I can figure is some weird ignition, being a double based, fine kernal,  powder.  The charges are within .04grs, and using FGMM SRP's with NAMMO/Lapua brass.  Switch to XBR8208, and the problem magically goes away.  Go figure.

And yes, I agree, 40fps ES are not going to fare well for LR.  That'll make for some pretty good vertical dispersion at range...  I think you may be on the right track though, getting away from the magnum primers; especially in such a small case.  Reloading for long range...it's a sickness. 😋

ATB,

Tim

11 hours ago, baldie said:

Its SAAMI spec as far as I know buddy.

I'm using a 90 grain SMK, and it looks about right, throat wise ?

Not a lot of point in extending the throat for more capacity, the starline brass I'm using can be trashed if not careful, with what I can get in now.

Going to have another session with it hopefully soon. I think the powder is right, it certainly shoots, but the ES's are disappointing. I'm thinking that's down to the first firing on the brass though.

I'm not familiar with RS powders, but after looking at it on line, and comparing load data to known cartridges, it (RS52) certainly seems to be a "4895 like" powder.

What ES's are you seeing?  I've been noticing that large ES numbers, with heavy for caliber bullets, is usually a sign that there's some squirrely ignition issues due to burn rate and load density.  Purely a suspicion on my part, with no real evidence to back it up (just anecdotal).  It's just something I've seen with CFE223 and a couple of the other faster burning powders (that in theory are temperature insensitive).  I'm wondering if the coatings used to help the powder remain temp insensitive are causing this... <shrug>

I'll be curious to see how you make out, and as always, I appreciate your response.

😂😂😂

On 11/24/2019 at 10:15 PM, baldie said:

Neither. They feed from my 6mmBr converted AICS mags.

Some of the yanks have messed about altering lips on the polymer .223 mags, but the 6mm conversion works far better.

Dave,

Did you use the SAAMI spec reamer, or did you add a .115 free bore as well?

I'm running a Valk out of an Origin, and wish I had cut the freebore beyond SAAMI spec.  Using 2000MR, I'm getting great velocities with 77gr pills, but with the bullet seated so deep, I literally can't add more powder without crushing the nose when seating.  Makes it frustrating seeing all that extra space in the mag (mod'ed MDT 6BR mags), being unusable because of the chamber.  Grrrr.... 😎

On 2/18/2020 at 12:52 AM, Shendy said:

Ive tried to order and sent them a message still waiting on a response 2 weeks later

Did you get this sorted?

22 minutes ago, KABOOM said:

Very interesting, how does one know if the bullet deformed or some other malady caused a keyhole? I would tend to guess any recovered bullet deformed on impact the backstop. This makes my brain itch so please enlighten me.

There's no way to see it; it's anecdotal for the most part.  The big thing is, when pressure/load/velocity goes up, and accuracy degrades, with long for caliber bullets, it's a sign that the bullet is being deformed.  The ELR guys see it a lot (and hence a lot of them going to shooting solids to gain a little bit more forgiveness).  Even solids will deform, so there is no free lunch or magic cure.  It's just physics.

This is what is driving some of the next generation bullet/ammunition developments (SIG .277 Fury for example).  Exotic metal bullets and barrels, bi-metal cases, 30-40% increases in chamber pressures; we're in a time of change in the oldest part of the firearms industry...the ammo itself.

Hoplite Arms is working on a lot of this newer tech, and it's proving to be quite interesting.

5 hours ago, The Gun Pimp said:

No, I didn't blow any up but barrel -life was about 400 rounds in F Class.  Great round though.

I'm not talking about blowing bullets up per se, more so bullets becoming deformed and showing less accuracy as the bullet "wobbles" due to the deformation.  This is when the bullet is long for caliber,and pushed too hard into the lands.  The front half of the bullet begins to spin as the lands take hold, but the rear resists, and so the bullets begin to deform, separate jackets and/or create weird voids.  A gain twist barrel helps ease (or ramp up gradually) the RPMs, lessening the deformation.

It's also why GT barrels allow a slightly faster speeds as well as being very tolerant of different bullet lengths.  The first I heard of it, I was a bit skeptical, but I've been running a GT in a 224 Valkyrie and it's been very accurate as well as faster than one would expect for a given charge and bullet weight.  I am well over book max with 75gr bullets and 2000MR powder, so the flattened pressure curve theory of a GT barrel appears to be well founded. 

JMTCW...

1 hour ago, OSOK said:

The OP said he wants 1000 yard accuracy and I've used F Class as the benchmark of that .

I was running both 139g Scenars and 155g Cauto's through mine at 3,400 ish but had to back both back to 3,268 & 3,210 to get them to shoot well at which time they had lost any advantages .

My 6.5 WSM running at 3,400 was the same as my 7/270 WSM running at less than 2,900 given my bullet choice etc .

OSOK

Running 140gr class bullets at 3400fps; you likely have bullet deformation occurring. Backing it down is the only option aside from rebarreling with a gain twist.

Shooting solids might be another option.

15 minutes ago, Andrew said:

Can I get you a little cheese with that......?

Frankly, I would use 140 Sierra Game Kings. I have killed a few deer with them and I cannot find fault. People waaay over think it~Andrew

LOL!

10 minutes ago, One on top of two said:

My rifles shoot them very well I even use the 143 eldx out to 1200 yards with no problems  On range days 

maybe you Had a bad batch , there’s was a rumour going around that there was a problem with the poly tips . But they have by all accounts rectified that . 
but personally I have never had a problem. To be honest I can’t rate them high enough And find them very easy to work with . 

the same goes for the 140 ELD m and the 147 ELD m 
 

It's quite possible I just ended up with a bad batch (I had heard similar, that a bad batch had gotten out).  I'll just blame @Andrew, since he picked up the ammo for me. 😂😂

This year I'll be loading up some 130gr Gamechanger Sierras, and see how they perform.

10 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

I'm no hunter so please take my question with a pinch of salt:  If you guys are shooting deer or elk at less than 300 yds why does windage matter between 6.5CM and a 308? It's peanuts except in very strong 90 deg conditions.  Surely the kill zone is pretty big (5" diameter ??)

In Montana, a "gentle breeze" can be 35-40mph gusts.  Even at 300yds, that can push a bullet a fair bit (about 18+ inches).  Even at a modest 15mph (kind of normal wind in Montana in the fall/early winter where I hunt), it's an almost 8 inches of drift (143 ELD-X @ 2700fps).  With a .308 and 178 ELD-X, it's 10+ inches (@2500 fps), and at 35mph it goes to 24+ inches (vice the 18 of the CM).

Just depends on the terrain, weather and distances...the US can be fairly broad in it's variables, depending on where one lives.  Out west, the ranges get longer, and winds get stronger.

On 3/21/2020 at 1:18 AM, One on top of two said:

I use 143  and 178 ELD- x 

I have fantastic results with both . Below is a 143 ELD-x creedmore retrieved from a fallow buck last year , just behind shoulder , on examination it took out heart / lung area and smashed into inside of opposite shoulder and obviously all associated muscle / tissue damage  at 250 odd meters , bullet held together very well , nice well controlled expansion allowing the bullet to go deep leaving a very good wound channel  according to my ballistics for the round I still had somewhere in the 1800ft/lbs and 2370 / 2400 FPS nudging it along 

the fallow ... nailed on the spot .

without digging out my game book IIRC it was around 75-80 KG so not the biggest but still very respectable. 

 

Interesting.  I've had very erratic results with the 143ELD-X.  At 270yds I had one grenade against the sternum (went in, between left side ribs, nicking one, bouncing it down into the back of the sternum), and found the slug under the hide on the opposite shoulder.  Strangely, it somehow missed both lungs (still trying to figure that one out; literally riccochet'ed around the lungs!).  The second round went through the left side ribs (missed bone), through the heart (blew out one ventricle), then punched a nice, neat, 6.5mm hole through one rib on the left side, and left another 6.5mm hole through left humorous(sp?) bone.  She just rolled over on the second shot, but the first shot she wobbled, staggered, laid down for about 5 mins, and then got back up (that's when the second shot was taken).

Ironically, another friend (known to Andrew as well) went out and took several deer and elk with same type ammo and exact same rifle (I borrowed his rifle so I didn't have to fly with mine).  I think the ELD-X (particularly the 6.5mm variant) had some issues.  I've heard this from several hunters around the US, and had also heard that Hornady made some changes to the ELD-X in 6.5mm (it seemed to be the only caliber that exhibited this weird behavior), since all of this.  <Shrug>  Like I said, interesting.

These are also available.

https://soar.reallyrightstuff.com/NATO-DVTL

7 hours ago, KABOOM said:

• 7 hours ago, KABOOM said:

  Better read some data there my brother, your totally wrong other than using  match bullet or a heavy jacket, bonded or mono metal may exit the animal. I compared 15o grn 308 and 6.5 140 grn creedmor Hogdon 2020 manual. Lighter bullet may go faster you cant compare a light weight varmint bullet to any thing intended for larger game. Based on your profile and location I assume USMC, I earned the title in 1980.

   

• There's a lot people that would say you're totally wrong about match bullets on game; hence the hotly debated topic.  I've been shooting the CM since about when it came out (long before you could get a factory rifle in it), and it has it's merits.  The best being it's high BC bullets that give less wind drift than a 308.  As you said yourself, shot placement are key, and wind calls affect that as the range increases.
• The 308 is a solid, reputable cartridge, but it is not the panacea for hunting game.  Neither is the CM.  
• I think we're saying the same thing.  Bullet selection and shot placement are the determining factors wrt killing game efficiently. 

The big thing with the 6.5CM is picking the right bullet.  It is considerably faster than a 308 at closer ranges, and IME will pass through an animal at shorter ranges without expanding, if using match bullets or something with a fairly thick jacket.  A soft point or expanding bullet seems to work well.  For bigger game, that thicker jacket actually helps, delaying the expansion, in exchange for good penetration.  As Andrew mentioned, when using the right bullet and decent shot placement, deer fold when hit with a 6.5CM.