VarmLR
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Posts posted by VarmLR
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Must admit with my less than 20/20 eyesight I tend to do must of my hunting to around 200yds at 15 times. Anything under 100yds is closer to 6 or 8x for the field of view. For years, atop a 22LR I did my first shooting using a 4x40 WA Bisley De Lux scope and used that out to 100yds. Better eyesight in those days though!
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37 minutes ago, No i deer said:
It sounds like none of us should be going out shooting unless you own/run or live on a farm. Not sure there is any other exceptions...
I am still working but not sure for how much longer as we're running out of materials fast because most merchant's are closed 🙄
Not true. If you are employed for vermin control, be that a professional gamekeeper or not, and you can show good reason, then how can restrictions apply? You would have to be sure of your good reason and it would have to stand up in court. An example is someone who undertakes fox control for a farmer who cannot do that himself and is experiencing issues and lost lambs or is in threat of losing lambs during this year's lambing season. Food production is an essential activity and so is anything that supports it. Too many sanctimonious arm chair warriors spouting BS on this across forums.....meet those conditions, check with your licensing department and have it recorded, plus advise local plod of when you intend going out so that they are not called unnecessarily to reports of shooting and you are acting within the law. The Coronavirus Act 2020 is available online for those who have not yet read it.
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I bought exactly that scope a few years old, boxed with papers and paid £900 which at the time about 3 or 4 years ago was the going rate. It is worth not much less now..they hold their value well.
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Try it and see. It may be fine and no harm in trying.
My money would never go on another Hawke though..once bitten twice shy...I had a rather pricey one a few years back and it developed a tracking fault. I noticed that the elevation turret was very graunchy and removed the top cap and dial top screw to remove the dial only to find another piece of alloy plate dial had been snipped roughly to act as a shim and crudely placed underneath it. Appalled, I sent that one packing and when offered another told them what they could do with it. Looked nice, glass was very average compared with just about anything Euro or American or Japanese and I'd never buy another. You can only say it as you find it and plenty are pleased enough to buy one...just not for me.
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I can't speak for anyone else nor do I claim what I use is the best wrt mag etc.
What I can say is that for years I shot at 1000 yds with "just" 17x mag and that was plenty. For BR where the rifle is usually very solidly supported on some sort of fixed rest, and FOV is less of an issue, ditto shake, then higher mags (the higher the better) are more usual.
However, I've found that once the weather warms up a little, you can start to have issues with mirage as distances go out and mag goes up, and also you compromise depth of field and field of view. With poorer quality glass you also have less light transmission and a poorer resolution image to start with so winding up the mag makes things often worse instead of helping.
The real key is not just mag' but glass quality. Give me a really good 10x optic and I'd way rather that at 1000yds than a mediocre one with twice the mag.
The other issue if you are using an all round rifle, not just one built for the range, is all up weight and the last thing you want is a 50x monster with a 34mm tube sat on your rail. It's all a compromise.
After 35 years of shooting, I have settled on my own compromise which suits me and addresses all the issues above, with all my rifles shod with weights of extras that I can cope with in the field as well as on the range, which give me good image quality, and importantly, very good mechanical reliability and precision. That matters as much as image quality imho.
My most "rangey" rifle is shod with a S&B PMII 5-25 which still cuts the mustard amongst the latest and greatest and I'd happily use it to 1500yds or more because the glass is up to it as is the mechanical precision and repeatability.
My hunting rifles, also used on the range have respectively a Nightforce NXS and a Bushnell DMR Elite fitted to them. Both with modest upper reach but both easily 1000yd capable and with great clarity. Not in the PMII league but what the Nightforce lacks in transmission it makes up for in clarity plus with both those scopes you could bash a fencepost in with the things and they'd probably still work fine (don't try this on Dad's rifle at home kids....he won;t be pleased and would have to explain "turn of phrase" to you in probably painful terms....).
You're spoiled for choice these days and best to do some in depth research and if possible try out the optics before you spend your hard earned. Good glass can be had relatively modestly with scopes such as the Gen 2 Vortex scopes. Where scopes are concerned I do think it's a case of buy once, cry once. Only a rich man can afford to buy cheap glass...
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20 hours ago, Kevgun said:
OK, will do, i'm going to try some 77 TMK'S they seem a popular choice and a few others as well.
Nice one Kev. They do shoot well. I find them better than the 69TMKs in my own rifle but others find they're not as good as the 77SMKs for target. I use RS52 with them and have some great results with that.
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1 hour ago, saddler said:
so....speakers?
Yes..classic 1970's dual concentric Tannoys...something of a passion of mine.
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Managed to bag a pair of vintage Tannoy Cheviots in need of restoration so drive units will be whipped out for a refoam and voicecoil gap clean before I rebuild the crossovers and see to the cabinets. As I'm usually busy building things for other people, it's nice to have some time to build a few things for my own audio system. I have a populated valve phonostage board here now so awaiting the right transformer to be made up, and raiding RS Components parts bins to build it into a top notch valve preamplifier for one of my turntables. Yikes, this lockdown's getting expensive!
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Managed to get more powders just in time so reloading for all cals for hunting/vermin control. Should see me through the year if this lock down is finished. Also attempted to measure my own pupilary distance and bought a coupe pairs more specs online saving me a fortune over opticians...after getting the first pair s bit wrong (hadn't realised I had different PDs for each eye), specsavers kindly released my measured data. I was spot on overall but 2mm off to one side!
Bought more stock for the business and for upcoming jobs.
Got a list to do for the cars and bike. Deep clean, polish the car bodies after cutting back and a three step fine coat polish before applying sealer. Service the bike ready for summer (hopefully) and if my arm injury heals up any time soon, build a retaining wall above the river flowing past our back garden as the existing wooden one's about to collapse (been saying that for years LoL!). Oh, and picking uyp a new pup next week so will have an 8 week old pup ready to start training...starting with house training! (I think I'm allowed a pick up under animal welfare reasons).
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Using N140 and now RS50 in my 308 I have just under several thousand rounds down it and checking the lands it's still as good as new...they've moved back fractionally but the bore looks great.
The 223 has had some hot loads through it, mostly N133 and RS50 and on my new barrel I'm up to around 1200 rounds on that with slightly more throat erosion than the .308. I'll dig my notes out but I think the throat had gone back about 5 thou. I may load back a bit as I want at least another 5,000 rounds from that barrel.
6.5CM...moderate loads for SRP brass using RS62 and no discernible wear after about 700 rounds through that. Hopeful for at least 4000 rounds out of that barrel as long as I keep loads moderate.
I won't touch any double base powder with a long bargepole as I don't shoot comp and can't justify a new barrel every season at £750 a pop!
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N133 is widely available here and great with 223 bullet weights of up to 60grns. I use RS50 for 223 heavies. Got better velocities using that than N140 as well as better groups.
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N140 won't be ideal.. N160 would be the better Vhit choice really. The listing on the N140 load data sheets for Vhit only list a couple of the medium/heavier 260 bullets being the 130grn Berger VLD and Swift Scirocco II, and the lighter 120 gr Barnes TTSX. The trouble with reading off bullet weights if you intend on replicating any of those loads (as you're probably aware) is that you may not be comparing like with like even for the same weights, so for example the VLD may have a shorter wall length than a more tangent or hybrid bullet shape of the same weight. Using the latter could well result in higher pressures for the same comparative loads, so if you must use just one powder, you have answered your own question really, with the caveats in mind, start light and work up. You could ask someone with QL to run a check for you based on your barrel length and bullet details. That probably wouldn't be a bad place to start if you must stick to just N140.
If it were me though I'd use the more suited powder. I use three different powders for three different cals and the only thing you have to be careful with is mixing them up! There's a good reason not many people use N140 for the 260...it's just not the ideal powder, and unlike the equivalent TR140/RS50, the velocity's from my own tests with using both are that Vhit tends to concentrate most velocity gains in the last few grains of load, whereas the RS is a lot more uniform with more of a straight line gain in velocities so you may end up disappointed. If you have some, why not give it a try and see for yourself though?
The nearest powder to Hodgons popular H4350 is likely to be RS62 which is a very common replacement for both 260Rem and 6.5 CM and that will see you safely up to the heavier 6.5mm bullets but also work well with the lighter ones. Personally, I'd use that or the N160.
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On 4/4/2020 at 10:34 AM, Catch-22 said:
Being a Hodgdon product, it’s likely to cost near £50lb in the UK. 💰
Umm..I’ll stick with Viht & RS
I wonder though if that will be the case? I used to buy RS powders for about £70/kilo but that source has dried up and I'm now paying closer to £80 for that and £88 for Vhit which seems to have gone up from last year. I can get Hogdon for about the same cost per 2lbs, so around 10% more expensive. The gap used to be more than that but price increases for the European powders are probably down to the £ falling on the $ this past few years which has levelled things up a lot.
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2 hours ago, One on top of two said:
VarmLR I’m glad to see your having some input, I have always found your posts Knowledgeable and worthy of a read 👍
well that’s the smoke blowing bit over with 😳
like you I have really been impressed and enjoy using the .233
I only use the 6.5 for stalking or those situations that’s require a bit more .
but to be fair they are very few and far between. My .223 Seems punch way above its weight .Thanks chap but really I don't claim any expertise and am always humbled by the depth and spread of knowledge on here and what a valuable resource it has become for many. You're always learning something new and I find to keep an open mind and listen to the experience of others has prevented me making errors of choice in the past and no doubt will do in the future.
It's good to hear what other folks use on a day to day basis and what they might like or dislike about it.
The mistake I made from the off (before being hampered with injuries) was building up platforms that were too heavy really for lugging about all day in the field and if I've learned one thing about field work where plodding the miles is involved, best to travel as light as possible. I still plod on with my two principle long range rifle set-ups and really it's the scopes which drag me down. The Nightforce on the 223 and a long barrel mean it weights in at 11 3/4 lbs but that's lightweight compared with the Tik-Tac A1 Creedmoor shod with a S&B PMII. That's a bit of a beast for lugging around so I tend to use it where I'm targeting specific quarry that I generally shoot from fixed points involving no more than a mile's walk.
My stalking these days is generally focused on controlling the local growing Muntjac population and I do favour the 223 using 55gr SKGs or Sierra 69gr TMKs. For most of my sub 300yd work on corvid control I use 40grn Vmax flat base bullets (only because I bought 600 of the things and need to use them up!). I do still use the 308 for more woodland stalking and that's got a DMR sat atop which I may change for a 6x42 at some point. I stick with one bullet, the SGK 155 soft point. For up to 400yd crows and magpies plus the odd squirrel I use the Creedmoor and wind bucking high BC 140gr SSTs which also come in handy for the odd muntjac although they tend to make a right mess at close quarters and after having to lug a heavy rifle an 18 Kilo buck back last outing will think again about doing the same for any length of walk!
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2 hours ago, brown dog said:
Great and balanced post. Thanks 😊
Always good to read technical and expert rifle/equipment focussed varminting chat, which I sense was the intent of the OP. The 'other stuff' always attracts trouble and trouble-types, which is why we don't have it on here. Simples.
Thanks brown dog, and thanks to you for your hard work on this forum and very balanced moderation. I appreciate that you won't tolerate what some others might which helps make this place what it is.
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Still here, still shooting vermin, but I don't post as much as I used to (bar recently) because forums generally ebb and flow with a lot of the same topics and information being covered. I took a break from forums for a while as I felt many had become too cliquey and if you weren't "in the clique" there could be quite a lot of disrespect floating about...not on this one I hasten to add, but certainly on another one, possibly the other main shooting forum on the UK. That one has gone downhill rapidly with a real low common denominator to the extent that many topics read as if penned by spoiIed or belligerent teenagers. I was also disillusioned by the undignified goings on in one of the UK's premier LR shooting clubs this past 18 months and really it made my mind up to keep my hobby as my hobby and with the exception of my primary club (which is like a big friendly family) I don't "do" clubs because it means necessarily having to deal with some that test the patience. I love my shooting and have done for donkey's years, from when it was part of my job to becoming my main hobby.
I also take a break when, if after genuinely trying to contribute, the response sometimes is less than welcoming by the argumentative few who always know best. I have no truck with such people and do not suffer fools gladly, possibly a hang up from my past life.
For all the negative there's a lot more positive on here though. It's a great place to discuss the finer points of reloading and shooting skills and join in the banter. Something was lost though with the sad loss of a few members including George and Bradders (RIP both).
I try not to publish too much about what or where I shoot (bar target) as it runs the risk of becoming a target, as foxdropper has discovered, for dissent and anti's. I just don't understand how those joining a site entitled UK VARMINTING can be that way. Perhaps some have the wrong idea or wrong forum? We are under enough pressure from the outside without making things difficult for members on the inside. Of course it always pays to stay within the bounds of decency as this information is very public and we need to be ambassadors for our sport.
For the most part, I have little interest in making or even watching videos. I'd rather use the time more productively, learning something new each day, perfecting skills and getting out as much as possible, which is less than I'd like these days!
One thing does interest me is what everyone uses as their main vermin control rifle set-ups? For long range small ground quarry and feathered pests, I find myself pretty much sticking with the little .223 as for the UK I find it really is the Jack of all trades, and I love the variety of loads available (tight twist barrel in my case allowing 45 to 80grn). Longer range or more challenging conditions and the 6.5 comes out of the cabinet. I've sat an older Nightforce scope on top of the 223 and dial, using Strelock Pro, a handheld anemometer and also use a Leice RF...that's about all the kit I carry and have my manual ballistic charts to fall back on which I've developed for each load.
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RS62 works very well with high BC 140/142 grn. Even at moderate loads I was getting decent velocities using it. Full case loads. It was RS themselves that did the QL for me on the RS62 and it does achieve full powder burn (99%) in my 24 inch barrel according to their predictions and seems more optimal in velocity terms than the RS70 and also is a little kinder on barrels when loading up to anywhere near full case levels being a lower energy powder. My load was 43.6gr for 2650fps (140 SST) in SRP brass.
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I've used both cals on small game, including muntjac. Bullet choice matters in either case. Too much is made about calibres and not enough on accuracy of shot placement and bullet construction. Beginners often get the advice to stick with the "more reliable" .308 but the truth is that in energy terms there's little between them but sectional density and velocity can be markedly different and a bullet that works in one well may not work in the other so well. I agree with Andrew. Not much will get up from a well placed 140gr SGK in 6.5 irrespective of deer size, and whilst the wound channel won't be quite as large as the equivalent 150grn SGK in .308, I've yet to get a runner with one. I have had runners with the .308 and I've seen deer heart shot run 100yds before dropping which on examination has a large chunk of their ticker missing!
Switching to HILAR bullet placement has made kills much more reliable IME and loading and practising for accuracy gives confidence in CNS area being hit. If I I can't hit it or there's any doubt, I wont take the shot, where someone faced with a deer side on even if moving might be tempted to take an engine room shot. Be it .243/6.5 or .308, a CNS hit will result in a bang-flop every shot. After discovering this I'm bemused as to why organisations like the BDS still propose the engine room as the most reliable shot when experience shows that's just not the case. The other thing which steered me towards the HILAR placement was that especially when using the .308 on Muntjac, well placed boiler room shots were still bursting the stomach ands gut through hydraulic action. Far less so when hit anywhere in the CNS area.
My take on ther cal thing. Buy both, shoot both, enjoy both. 308 would be my choice for boar. There's a reason it's still one of the worlds most popular calibers. It works well on medium and some large game. The 6.5 has the legs at distance so if shooting over terrain like NZ where shooting across valleys often results in 600plus yd distances, I'd pick the 6,5 or 7mm-08 over the .308 as BC matters more where distances and windage make things more difficult.
It's not really something to generalise on, but just apply a little thought and there's good arguments for both.
For the UK, I'd still rather have the 6.5 as it's so much sweeter shooting, and using SGKs it's a very reliable stopper and superbly accurate. The .308 is fine and no more expensive to load for but my personal choice would be the 6.5 as I just get on better with it. If I wanted a day on boar though, I'd pick up the .308. In that case, the option of a much heavier projectile and a wider wound channel shot over relatively short distances are the ideal tool for boar.
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Laurie also wrote some very informative articles on both LR and SR comparisons published in accurateshooter.com and targetshooter.co.uk
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I use 150gr SGK and either 43.8gr N140 or RS50 (same charge for both works well). Sub moa load in my T3.
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Just don't mix up KVB 223's with the 223M versions! Despite calling them the "KVB223" imho these are unsuitable for chamber pressures in 223, and in SR 6.5x47 and 6.5CM. Cup thickness for the KVB-223 is 0.020" and for the 223M is 0.025" but AFAIK the charge type/mass is the same so they're not a "hot" variety.
I found out at my cost not to use .02" cup primers in my 223 where I experienced some blown primers and gas-cut bolt faces on charges that were within acceptable published limits. The SR brass for 6.5's should use the thicker Magnum moniker primers, such as CCI450 and KVB-223M to reduce risks of blowing primers, especially when loading "hot".
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1 hour ago, Catch-22 said:
I remember a previous rifle I had in 6.5x47.
I was doing everything right and the rifle shot well to 600m, but I was bugged by ES that was in the 50s and 60s.
A simple switch in primers, from CCI450 to Murom KVB-223m, with no other changes at all instantly reduced my ES to around 9fps. Surprisingly group size didn’t change at all, around 0.35MOA at 100m and still low vertical at 600m.
Personally I don’t change bullet or powder, but will change primer and seating depth to really tune a load from Ho-Hum to Yum-Yum. 😆
I use the Muron KVB 223M for both the 223 and 6.5 SR primer brass. I haven't yet tried the 450's but have a batch of them here so might try them and see whether I get a similar result.
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47 minutes ago, Brillo said:
Absolutely spot on.
Just a note about SD. Many shooters chase an elusive single digit SD and it is totally unnecessary. Because SD is a measurement of a population dispersion from a group mean, it is meaningless for low population counts. Statistically the acceptable minimum population is over 30 data points.
That''s a very valid point Mark and one which doesn't seem to be widely recognised. I must admit that it's ES I work on and usually pay little store on Sd from low count groups especially. It's still worth noting though (and pretty inescapable) that smallest groups, unless consistent/repeatable, are not always a reliable indicator of low ES. Low vertical dispersion can be a better indicator but at 100 yds I still use ES together with group size because I've seen too many large ES groups still fall into similar group sizes as low ones on a one off OCW test. By "large" I mean too large if considering optimal charge weight for long distance (I try for ES10 but for my vermin shooting where longest range tends to be inside 400yds, 15 to 20 is acceptable). Anything over 20 and I look for a different bullet or primer if I can't optimise on charge/seating distance.
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That's almost bang-on what my FEO advised a week ago. It is permissible to travel short (reasonably) distances to reach a permission where pest control is thought essential by the landowner and your services are requested AFAIK. ie...the decision to go ultimately is taken by the shooter at the shooter's risk but if at the behest of a farmer during lambing for example, and you don't have far to travel and can exercise social distancing, licensing in my neck of the woods are happy with that. Doesn't apply to stalking or any form of recreational shooting, including for the "purpose of exercise" for which no driving anywhere is currently permitted.
Shooting on private land.
in General Discussion
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Yes, I was backing up your situation, not arguing against it, so apologies if it came over that way. You are absolutely covered as are all those who undertake a similar role. You're right too about predator control and the larger the sheep numbers lambing, the more important it becomes. I get paid in kind to do all of the post control...my arrangement is that in exchange for helping out with the odd labouring work and pest control, I get to keep the sole shooting rights for the land and keep any deer that I shoot plus can shoot whenever I want once the pheasant season begins. I also cover a fair amount of arable for pigeon control. You can walk about and scare them as much as you like but unless you're there almost constantly, inevitably the numbers need to be controlled although we do follow the guidance to the letter with scaring and deterring. The past few years, we've seen more Ravens than in decades and last year they gathered in unbelievable numbers....big birds close up! Basically scaring them off the lambing fields is the only option. We had a caravan at one end of a large field pretty well hidden and used to take it in turns to monitor things at the start of lambing to discover where the worst threats came from and concentrate on controlling those. Worst thing I've witnessed was a badger coming out of the woods, grabbing a few day old lamb and starting to chew on it's back end before dragging it off. It had cleared off with the lamb before I could get to it but we discovered the remains of the lamb a short distance away. Those cuddly badgers did more damage than the fox that particular year.