VarmLR

Mine was a 7.5 for a 6.5 cal, so perhaps 6.5 for the 224?

One of the LR distance groups' world record was held for years using ammo loaded on inexpensive Lee kit.

Whilst it would be nice to have a slightly stiffer frame (no sniggering at the back🙄) the Lee Breachlock Challenger does me.  It has a few annoying traits like the wooden ball handle keeps falling off (me being too lazy to epoxy it on), the collection tube for spent primers regularly drops off spilling primers all over the floor, and the primer seater often falls out of the holder when depriming cases....err....not selling it am I 🤣

Fancied a change to an RCBS Rockchucker but the Lee does ok for the outlay.

Lee dies of late I don't think are as well finished as they used to be.  I still have a pace setter set from a few years back which is fine but have also invested in dome Redding dies which I think are better, especially the VLD seater with micrometer setting on it.

Music?  1812 usually reminds me to put more powder into the cases, but usually I listen to R4Extra for the older stories and the noon funny hour which takes the monotony out of case prep.

Yes.  I'd only add to that sensible advice, especially where deer are concerned, that prior thought is given to how they might be handled being mindful of the need for social distancing.  If it can't be done without social contact, I guess the simple answer is "don't do it". 

Personally, (and it is personal opinion) I can't see any desperate need for controlling deer presently with the possible exception of preventing imminent crop damage.  Conversely, for many, lambing season will justify corvid and fox control. 

People will do what people will need to do and as grown ups I'm sure we're mindful of what is sensible and what is not,  irrespective of the mud that some forums are slinging around.  As for SD members, there are a few good ones (especially the few that also frequent UKV ;-)).  The members who took over those particular recent debates need to do some growing up.  They demonstrated pack mentality of the lowest common denominator.  Their opinions are not authority and shutting down of discussions in such a manner does them no favours to the shooting community.  Talk about own goals! Best leave that one there.

Could it simply be a warming barrel?  I've seen this many times with lighter sporting barrels where shot one, and sometimes shot 2 are off, with the rest forming a relatively consistent group as the barrel warms on the string, only for the groups to go "off" again after 5 or 6 shots.  As Terry says, it may just be one of those things to note with that particular load with that particular rifle.

The only other culprit I can think of is change of cheek weld which affects parallax of the sight picture.  In fact that's something I needed to specifically work on before I realised it was having a massive impact on my group consistency in the early years.  Sometimes it is an unconscious action whereby your eye comes to rest fractionally off from the first shot as you settle back into a string.  It tended to be the first few shots with me before I settled into better discipline.  Once I did, the results started getting better...a lot better, so it had nothing to do with the rifle in the end.

The oil's fine.  I used the bore cleaner for my shotguns but it's not much cop for rifles I found.  I use KG1 for carbon removal and Wipeout for copper removal.

1 minute ago, gazzarM1 said:

Well said....the bun fight on SD was not nice to witness...

Agreed.

Thing is the range of temperatures in the UK isn't that wide and the accepted wisdom is load for say a 15 degree day for load dev, allowing 15fps 5 degrees either way (RS62) which isn't out of the way.  It's when things pick up to 30 degrees or ammo is left in direct sunlight that things can become more interesting...and potentially dangerous if you continue to shoot with cases showing pressure signs.  Whilst not as much of an issue with other cals/brass which show pressure signs much more readily, the danger with 6.5CM, especially with SR primers (remember if using SR, you ought to be using magnum thickness primer cases due to the pressures involved) is that you could be well over pressure and the primers won't necessarily show this.  Keeping an eye on case heads helps.

Yes, RS is temperature sensitive.  It's 3fps per degree by my reckoning above.  What it has going in its favour though is that looking at pressure V's MV charts, it;'s velocity gain is way more uniform, as in close to a straight line, than many other powders.  Looking at some of my N140 data, it tends to show fairly stable at hott-ish loads for between 10 to 20 degrees, with some velocity gains but above this the pressure rise steepens right up with velocity creating some potentially dangerous situations.  I loaded some 175TMKs for Warminster a few years back and did the load dev at about 16 degrees.  I loaded within recommended limits and saw no pressure signs at all with any of my loads.  At an ambient 25 degrees (or thereabouts) at Warminster the first few shots seemed to kivk like a mule and I experienced a sticky bolt on the second so stopped shooting and examined the cases.  They were heavily marked with ejector marks and the primers were pancake flat.  Yes, N140 wasn't ideal but I didn't have any N150 at the time.

I switched to RS50 and despite being re-labelled TR140, having very similar bulk density and energy to N140 (load data is almost interchangeable) it shares the more uniform velocity gains with pressure I found using RS62, so I never experienced such violent pressure spikes when using it.

I still use RS62 because for most of the year it gives me minuscule ragged hole groups and I've settled on two rounds which work really well with it (139 Scenar and 140gr SSTs for hunting and vermin bashing, although I tend to use the 223 more for that).

The above relates to my own data and may not be representative of what others have found as it relates to my rifles, brass, primer choice and bullet choice, so take it or leave it with that in mind.

I tend to agree.  The restrictions are designed to flatten the peak to help the NHS to cope, and quite rightly so, not about reducing risks to individuals to nothing as that's cloud cuckoo...we're told that most of us will get it at some point or other  and if we are unfortunate enough to contract the more aggressive form, the NHS needs to be able to deal with those numbers at any point in time.  At the moment it's all about the maths. 

Personally, the risk associated of travelling to a permission close by to undertake say pest control are being grossly over stated and exaggerated imho. They've almost become straw man arguments designed to panic us.  The real danger is in social contact and there's more danger of that out walking to get your 1 hour of exercise a day or whatever.  I've seen it myself on the Cotswold Way where out for a 30 minute walk it was like wading across Picadilly Circus!  People in large groups, dogs walkers stopping for a chat, even families out picnicking! People handling gates, touching styles, passing in close proximity.  That, for me, was the last straw and I will be choosing more unsociable hours for my walks in future.  In contrast, jumping into your car and travelling 3 or 4 miles to your permission on largely deserted roads and not coming into contact with anyone (letting the landowner know by phone when you arrive) carries little risk...lets be honest about this.   Glos licensing has confirmed that pest control during lambing is fine provided all social contact has been avoided.  I have it in black and white.  However I haven't been tempted to wander out, despite repeated requests by the landowner that employs me to undertake these things because I don't yet know what Uniform's standing orders are on the matter. I've left that back with the feo who will check and get back to me next week.  Until then, I'm staying put. 

The state overnight has been handed more controls over it's governed people than at any time in living memory, and even churches, with freedom of religion and to practice it protected from the times of the Magna Carta, have been ridden roughshod over when in many cases there are means by which controls could be exercised to safeguard the faithful and the clergy...since when did fundamental beliefs and the associated sacraments cease being essential?  They're certainly essential for the health of the souls of the faithful.  I find some of the contradictions at play  confusing at best.  Look at the underground in London...services paired back to the bone so that those reduced numbers of commuters are now packed in like baked beans making their risks worse, not better! We're living through some very worrying times folks.

All just imho and I don't for one second condone anything that genuinely increases risk to people or would be illicit.  It's healthy to discuss these things and what civil liberties are left presently, it's important that we can freely be allowed to discuss these things without things descending into the childish bun fight that happened over on SD with some surprising aggression shown there, choice language and insults flying about left right and centre.  What is happening to people, seriously?  Such behaviour is never something I see as acceptable as it denies the human dignity of others. 

13 hours ago, lapua said:

Wiltshire firearms make it clear on their website. Livestock and crop protection by single shooter is ok.

My Glos feo says same thing BUT uniform have been out stopping people and there are reports of those with firearms travelling to permissions for pest control being handed warnings.

On 3/25/2020 at 2:18 PM, Ralpharama said:

I was one who did butts duty. I was going to shoot in the second detail but the RCO was so rude to my friend Clinton over the radio at the gate that we decided that enough was enough. Working the targets was miserable as the rain poured down our upturned sleeves and necks. I could have endured the rain alone but the constant sniping from the RCO made it unbearable and to be honest makes me question my membership of the club.

I appreciate he gave up his free time to run the shoot, but if he can't be polite then he may as well have stayed at home.

One of the reasons I didn't renew my membership unfortunately.  Life's too short to have to deal with such people.  

Welcome EMC

I think that RS62 seems to be the more popular choice of RS powder for the 6.5VM which is no surprise given that it's energy is very similar to Hodgson H4350, the universal match prior to restrictions on powders coming about limiting choice.

RS powders do have some issues with temperature sensitivity but in my own experience, less so than Vhitavouri, where I've experienced some really unwanted pressure spikes with N140 in warmer weather.

The difference in MVs between a 139 Lapua Scenar and RS62 tested at 10 Celcius and again at 22 Celcius (same primers and cases) was notable .  10 degrees gave 2665 fps and 22 degrees gave 2701 fps (5 shot averages).

I don't know how this might compare with RS70 but one advantage with RS62 is that powder kernals are camphor coated to aid better temperature sensitivity. 

I've had to inform the landowner I do pest control for that whilst the FEO has said that pest control during lambing is fine, travelling to the farm may not be. Uniform have been out stopping cars and if you have to travel to your permission, you risk having your FAC revoked, a fine and confiscation of firearms.  A lot of mixed messages.  The exception I think relates to those living adjacent the land they shoot on, those farm workers considered as essential workers travelling to their places of work but that may not apply to recreational shooters who undertake pest control.

Yes, I'd agree with that.  I try and aim for 10 on ES as a reasonable target.  Any less would be nice but tbh, environmental factors, changes in wind, poor reading of conditions and slight inconsistencies of technique count for more error and inconsistency.   At 30fps though I'd not be happy and work on it until it's closer to just into double figures.  I'll qualify that and say that's what I'd personally aim for, for my vermin control rounds and target rounds.   For shooting deer under 100yds it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether 10 or 50 provided you have a reasonable group and the right bullet for the job at the right MV.

Trouble is though Pops that it's not necessarily always the case at 100 yds as differences in velocity of 30 or 40 fps make very little difference and can easily fall within an MOA group at that distance given a reasonably swift enough MV. Arguably though, we're looking more towards quarter moa depending on barrel/load/shooter capabilities, so then I'd probably agree with you in principle.   It's only once out beyond 300yds that BC and stability really starts showing up more in terms of group size.  I've shot some groups with the 223 which were all sub moa at 100 yds, but the same loads at 300yds (flat base G1 profile bullets) were miles apart.  Groups rarely tell the whole story but finding a node where harmonics promote better group consistency is key.  OCW, find the nodes, tune the node (if needed) after trying a few 5 shot groups and crack on. 

Depends on range to be shot.  I use OCW and am concerned about SD/ES for the simple reason that just because group sizes show as consistent at short range, the same may not be true further out when velocity drops off.  That's why low SD/ES figures matter for longer distances.  You may get low vertical dispersion on a one off group at 100yds showing mediocre or high ES but extrapolated to even 600 yds and that dispersion will likely be higher than the larger group at 100yds with lower ES.  The purpose of OCW is twofold:  First to find an economical and repeatable (reliable) solution to discovering your barrel's node points for any given bullet/.powder combo and secondly to be able to fine tune to identify where those same nodes show lowest ES/SD.   I have to admit that over several years trial and error, there is generally some correlation between the sweet spot for at least two nodes for any given load development and reasonably tight ES/SD, but that really does depend on care with case prep and load consistency.  Without being quite careful, you may still end up with similar node points but slightly looser ES/SD and that's generally fine for getting into a ballpark and then refining the load more, or for closer distances, especially where you have no access to a chrony.

What some do, including myself, is to select those node points and then load a further three or so groups of 5 at each to prove a statistically relevant group size can be had.  If it cannot, then back to the drawing board!

20 hours ago, Richiew said:

After reading the Brian litz books gyroscopic stability seems to be a big factor at transonic speeds so a high sg Above 1.5 means very stable . high bc doesn’t always go with stability so you need to choose a bullet that fits your barrel twist and speed  . For a 1/12 “ twist lapua 155s don’t do too good but older shaped bullets such as 175/155 MatchKings do very well . So it’s a balance of bc and stability and speed along with suitable twist rate . The lapua s work great with one in ten or eleven twist so not so good in my accuracy international 308 but good in a mates Sako trg . Hybrids or secant shaped bullets look like they are happier with faster twists and the tangent type like a slower twist  . Have look at the books Ballistic performance of rifle bullets you’ll be amazed at how bad and good some bullets are and be able to pick bullets that might fit your rifle without too much heartache . Cheers Rich 

This.

It's not so much choosing a bullet in the middle of the accepted wisdom on weight limits for twist but on the best form factor for weight to achieve the most stable outcome.  Brian Litz's Applied Ballistics charts are your friend...

I still use my Lee press and as it's resulted in ammo that's seen off competition at shoots, it works for me.  I'd rather invest my cash in more reloading components as I'm pretty sure that the difference between bullets and case prep consistency matters more than what press you use.  Now dies...that's a different story...

3 hours ago, Re-Pete said:

This was sent to me by a friend a few minutes ago..............

"At The Princess of Wales hospital. NHS staff have been sent this:

This is the advice given to hospital staff.
It explains the virus and hopefully, how to prevent getting it.
Please share with family, friends and work colleagues.

Virus Detection:

The simplest way to distinguish Coronavirus from a Common Cold is that the COVID-19 infection does not cause a cold nose or cough with cold, but it does create a dry and rough cough.
The virus is typically first installed in the throat causing inflammation and a feeling of dryness. This symptom can last between 3 and 4 days.
The virus typically then travels through the moisture present in the airways, goes down to the trachea and installs in the lungs, causing pneumonia that lasts about 5 or 6 days.
Pneumonia manifests with a high fever and difficulty breathing. The Common Cold is not accompanied, but there may be a choking sensation. In this case, the doctor should be called immediately.

Experts suggest doing this simple verification every morning: Breathe in deeply and hold your breath for 10 seconds. If this can be done without coughing, without difficulty, this shows that there is no fibrosis in the lungs, indicating the absence of infection. It is recommended to do this control every morning to help detect infection.

Prevention:
The virus hates heat and dies if it is exposed to temperatures greater than 80°F (27°C). Therefore hot drinks such as infusions, broths or simply hot water should be consumed abundantly during the day. These hot liquids kill the virus and are easy to ingest.
Avoid drinking ice water or drinks with ice cubes.

Ensure that your mouth and throat are always wet, never DRY. You should drink a sip of water at least every 15 minutes. WHY? Even when the virus enters water or other liquids through the mouth, it will get flushed through the oesophagus directly into the stomach where gastric acids destroy the virus. If there is not enough water, the virus can pass into the trachea and from there to the lungs, where it is very dangerous.

For those who can, sunbathe. The Sun's UV rays kill the virus and the vitamin D is good for you.
The Coronavirus has a large size (diameter of 400-500 nanometers) so face masks can stop it, no special face masks are needed in daily life.
If an infected person sneezes nearby, stay 10 feet (3.3 meters) away to allow the virus fall to the ground and prevent it from falling on you.
When the virus is on hard surfaces, it survives about 12 hours, therefore when hard surfaces such as doors, appliances, railings, etc. are touched, hands should be washed thoroughly and/or disinfected with alcoholic gel The virus can live nested in clothes and tissues between 6 and 12 hours. Common detergents can kill it. Things that cannot be washed should be exposed to the Sun and the virus will die.
The transmission of the virus usually occurs by direct infection, touching fabrics, tissues or materials on which the virus is present.
Washing your hands is essential.
The virus survives on our hands for only about 10 minutes. In that time many things can happen, rubbing the eyes, touching the nose or lips. This allows the virus to enter your throat. Therefore, for your good and the good of all, wash your hands very often and disinfect them.
You can gargle with disinfectant solutions (i.e. Listerine or Hydrogen Peroxide) that eliminate or minimize the amount of virus that can enter the throat. Doing so removes the virus before it goes down to the trachea and then to the lungs.
Disinfect things touched often: mobile phone, keyboard, mouse, car steering wheel, door handles, etc ....

Sent in to us just now and we wanted to share this knowledge & advice with you all.

Please do the same and take care!


Pete

Thanks for posting Pete.  Very useful and hopefully most of us will be doing most of these things currently.

9 hours ago, Gluv said:

I actually find the man in question quite amusing 🙂 He can be blunt,  but I suppose if I had to deal with annoying club members all the time , I would be too . 

At the end of the day there isn't a cue of people around the corner prepared to take on all the club duties is there ? 

Everybody gets offended too easily these days , the mans got character!

Offas has had a few problems recently, some of their own making and some not .

I have renewed my membership this year and will be shooting at Kingsbury the weekend 🙂

Gluv 🇬🇧

True that there's always a shortage of volunteers to take on club duties but this is common to most clubs I suspect.  There's no excuses for downright rudeness in many of these cases though Gluv.

Playing devil's advocate for a minute, it's a bit of a far stretch accusing everyone sharing similar experiences of ALL being "annoying club members...". That in itself is insulting to the people that keep things afloat financially, the club membership and is a position of arrogance even?

 Yes, those running the clubs work hard and we shouldn't ever forget they volunteer for thankless tasks and generally do a great job (I'm always impressed by the dedication and hard work of those helping to run shooting clubs) which is appreciated especially by those of us who've had do do similar. But when many people, not just a few, report what has been reported, then it's not right to dismiss the comments as all being from "whinging snowflakes" because such views are demeaning, intolerant and undignified.  "Character" is one thing, and usually isn't defined as the knack of being unnecessarily rude.  Not a good trait for a club secretary especially is it?

To be fair to Offas, there was a transitional period and a mix up which wasn't all of their own doing but as the HO status quo got tangled up with the new committee appointments, balls were dropped and communication most certainly could have been a lot better a lot sooner.  The old guard worked their socks off but rarely did I witness much rudeness...they were the real characters if you like, and were guilty not of a lack of passion for the sport or for growing membership, but perhaps just needed a helping hand on the administrative side.  Again, this is not uncommon with many clubs but those running them if they want loyal membership need to be aware of the sensitivities of dealing with people. 

I would have renewed my membership if one or two ranges had been available in the forthcoming year and if we could have gone a year without being messed about so much on some of the longer ranges, plus been treated with a little more respect.  As it is, I'll be sitting this year out.

1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

There is no mandatory requirement to go through probation if already qualified.  HO Guidance 2016 is clear, it's up to the Committee to decide if, in exceptional circumstances, probation is to be waived.  I speak from a position of knowledge.  We have waived through five persons in the last few months (thanks to a club that's de-affiliated from NRA - cheers guys!).

Quote from HO Guidance 1/12/2016:  

" T. the probationary period may be waived, at the club’s discretion, for someone who is already a full member of another club which has been approved by the Secretary of State or Scottish Government in respect of the same type or types of firearm; or holds a firearm certificate; or has handled firearms in the course of his/her duty in the police or the armed services, and has a statement from his/her existing or former senior/commanding officer saying that he/she is fully trained in handling the type of firearms in respect of which the club has obtained approval and is able to use them safely without supervision; (see notes 14 & 17)"

Certainly ensuring suitability to be a member is a requirement - it's been so for years.  There are no HO changes to guidance, which has been the same since 1st Aug 2016 update.  If a person applying is not personally vouched for by current members then we require references to be given (not family).

ODRC seem to have some strange views recently.

I agree, but Simon was totally unequivocal when discussing it with me: Anyone leaving the club now will be required to undergo a full probationary period if returning....in his own words.  He did cite HO guidelines but having (just) checked myself following your post, you seem to be correct here so why he should tell me otherwise seems to point to it being specifically an ORDC  requirement, perhaps to avoid losing too many members this year?  The cynical view is that this looks to be the case anyway.  I think that's a bit low imho given the number of cancelled shoots last year. 

Budget considerations for reloading?

If you just want to try it out and have access to a club rifle, you could start trying various calibres to see which you prefer shooting.

Reloading costs can vary a lot depending on calibre.  If this is an issue and you just want to practice skills, then the cheapest solution to 600 (but no further really) might be the humble .223 with tight twist (1/7 to 1/8 for up to 77/80grn bullets....80gr might be pushing it a bit for a 1/8).

If barrel life needs to be a consideration and you intend on shooting a lot, small calibre for charge column/case dia rounds such as .243 or 6mm CM will burn out a barrel in a half or third of the time that a .308 might carry on with acceptable accuracy for.

Middle ground might be 6.5 x 47 (ideal 600 yd cal), or any of the other available 6.5s or perhaps the 6mm br (2000 to perhaps 2800 rounds per barrel seems a commonly experienced lifespan if velocities are kept sensible and loads aren't too hot).

T3 is not a bad place to start.  Loads of custom chassis options, decent trigger.

If using one powder to cover both weights I would probably use N150.  It works just fine with 155gr, and should work fine in the OPs longish 26 inch barrel taking advantage of the longer barrel pressure/burn time.  Many have found that the N150 may give lower velocities than N140 with the 150/155 bullets but better consistency for some.   It would imho be a better powder for the 175s.  I have used N140 with 175s and even 190gr bullets but have also suffered pretty scary pressure spikes when the warmer weather picks up.  RS50 is well worth considering.  It's basically re-labelled TR140 and has a similar energy to N140 but I've always found it less likely to spike as readily and have also experienced slightly better velocities when using it with my 155gr bullets.  Chareg weights are poretty equivalent between N140/RS50/TR140 but I would never try loading N140 up as hot as I have using RS50 due to its propensity to pressure spike.

I wouldn't unduly worry about case wear if rotary tumbling but would think about chemical reactions of anything used.  Citric or Lactic acids dosed at 6 to 10% should be fine and cold rinsed afterwards.  I use these for my coffee machines too to descale the inners and they're recommended for anything containing brass or copper or steel without any danger of damaging the metals.   Different water areas have different chemical compositions of minerals, and differing alkalinity so may be more prone to reaction with the brass surface depending on exposure time and temperature.  It's rarely a concern though as no galvanic corrosion or reaction takes place within the main body of the brass, just on the surface.

Personally, I just dry tumble mine in a mixed walnut/corn cob media with half a teaspoon of non-ammonia polish before annealing and sizing, then follow up with 10 to 15 minutes in an ultrasonic bath before the cases go into a hot air dryer.  They're invariably shot out by multiple firings long before these methods of cleaning do any harm whatsever so knock yourselves out but just take care not to use anything with a strongly reactive acidic or alkaline agent that could weaken the alloy.

Sadly, this is becoming all too common place with many clubs who are tied to using MOD ranges which is why I've not bothered to renew one of my memberships this year....far too many instances of last minute cancellations which just seems unprofessional, incompetent or deliberate on the part of Landmarc and with the attitude of some military range officers that clearly they'd rather civvies weren't there at all.  It cost a lot of us a lot of money and wasted time last year and frankly, it wasn't worth the wasted time, money or effort to bother continuing with MOD ranges this coming year for me personally.  For those that will continue, I do hope that the situation improves for you this coming year over the shambles that it has been.

AFAIK even existing members who lapse membership now with ORDC have a mandatory obligation of going through a formal probationary period with them before allowing to become a full member, apparently due to new Home Office requirements (despite previously being full members which makes no sense at all....absolutely none!).  They're (HO) making things harder for everyone.  I wasn't aware that you needed the signature of an existing member but from my other memberships it's pretty standard practice with many clubs now otherwise anyone (with or without) a FAC could join who are not a known quantity, so many clubs are tightening up security to lower any potential risks associated with people unknown to their members joining.  You can either find someone who is a member and get to know them, but the circumstances and length of time known to them would probably be looked into as a common sense check.  It may seem unfair but I can see why some clubs are leaning this way.  Following Catch-22's advice might help you out...speak with Simon first though to make sure you would be welcome to just show up otherwise you may find you've had a wasted trip.