Chanonry

18 hours ago, Conorj said:

I've bought new lapua brass do I need to do any prep with it before I load it? I've seen a video on YouTube where the primer pockets are uniformed and the neck thickness sized, is this overkill or worth the extra hassle?

No you don't, but you can if it makes you feel better.  

People do lots of stuff with a theory backing it up  but with no data driven evidence to demonstrate any benefit.  Its more superstition really than science. 

On 5/29/2019 at 5:28 PM, Popsbengo said:

I'm planning a new rifle for 1000yd accuracy.  Looking at Berger's reloading manual I'm struck that 6.5 Creedmore, 260 Remington, 6.5x55 Swed., and 6.5x47 Lap all have very similar external ballistics with the same bullets using the same powder choices.  What's the opinion regarding the benefit choice one over the others and why?

None. They are all as bad as each other 😂.

6.5 CM "you can get factory ammo" yes loaded by Hornady. The same people who don't seem to be able to make two bullets the same length or decent brass. Feel free...

260 mag length, heavy bullets and loading depth issues.

Swede is just an oddball that doesn't do anything the others can't but is longer and takes more powder. So the CM fanboys tell me.

Lapua can't get ammo. Really.

The "benefits" is an exercise in hair splitting of the finest dimensions...

Keep shooting lead until it is banned (if ever) better than the toxic heavy metal alloys ....

Who won the rifle ?

10 hours ago, NigelM said:

Just some real life numbers.

6.5x47 Lapua, 123 Scenars @ 2940 fps, 29.92 in HG and 50 degF. 0 wind.

Shooting due N or S, Coriolis and Spin drift on in Strelok Pro - 386" up and left 12".

Turn Coriolis off and it's 386" up and 8" left.

Turn Spin Drift off and 386" up and 0" left.

Shooting due E with everything turned on - 382" up and 12"

Coriolis off and 386" up and 8" left.

Spin drift off and 386" up and 0".

Do due W with everything on - 389" up and 12" left.

Coriolis off and back to 386" up and 8" left

Spin drift off and 386" up and 0".

So Coriolis is causing a difference of 7" of vertical and 4" of horizontal depending on what direction you're shooting in.

Spin drift is worth 8" left whatever direction you're shooting in.

Other factors have an even greater effect. Add 1mph of wind and at 1000 meters it's worth 10". Shows the importance of your wind reading. 

My velocity shift due to powder temperature is 2 fps/ degF. go from a 50 degree day to a 70 degree day and it adds 40 fps to velocity. That reduces drop by 19" at 1000 meters.

I have also just invested in a Garmin 701 and have comparing G7 calculations to the Litz Custom Curves. Same set up as above and the Custom Curves give an extra 0.2 mils of elevation over G7 which is 8" at 1000 meters. Explains why I have been having to add a couple of clicks to the Strelok calculations to get centre target at that range and it wasn't the chronograph lying to me as I suspected.

Aerodynamic jump is another factor that has to be considered if there is any wind and can be worth 6" quite easily at that range.

It's bloody complicated if you want to achieve 1st shot hits at that range. Get one small part of the calculations wrong and you can be a long way off target and the odds on blaming the issue on the wrong factor is very high. It's also easily compounded and confused by a rifle that's not shooting inside 1/2 MOA (almost 3" either way) or minor shooter error.

If you have the ability to take sighter shots and can walk it in then much of the above is more complicated than required admittedly.

The effects of Coriolis and Spin Drift look an order of magnitude high ? Your data not mine, but a quick look at my 6mm load it seems 2x my values? Odd.

Litz quotes powder sensitivity rates as :

Good Double Base 1 fps/ ºF

Average Single 0.5 ºF

Best Single 0.2 ºF

So part of the answer is you don't run a powder @1000 that you think is 2 fps/ºF ?

Heard Avery on the radio at sparrow fart this am.  Said he was surprised NE did this as they were arguing the licences should not be renewed next year as is, not that they should be withdrawn immediately. Said they understood the pigeon issues and didn't have a problem with that, kind of implied crows as well maybe, never mentioned anything else. Not sure who put him in charge though.

Really this is a precursor to them arguing that natural fuana should not be "annihilated" to keep a " few more pheasants running about in January". His words not mine. So listen up BASC this is coming your way shortly.....

Came across as a bit of a weirdo academic to be honest. You wouldn't have him to the house 😁 

Previous action was bedded in ?

6 minutes ago, TJC said:

1. If it is basic and maths why do different apps account for it differently ?

2. I love Brian’s work and follow him religiously but he’s saying we need a custom curve for bullet, he’s saying spin drift is more than many other ballisticians and he’s saying coriolis matters....and he’s selling software to measure and compensate for these.

3. The truth is the best shooters in the word don’t use it and we all know in our sport everyone chases performance the the enth degree. If it made a difference at the enth degree shooters would embrace it religiously. You need to ask yourself why they don’t. 

PS I don’t they think are flat earth examples at all. They are simplistic for sure but they make sense don’t they ? The earths atmosphere moves with the earth. Outside of the atmosphere coriolis does exist, is extremely material but for the few seconds of bullet flight it doesn’t matter. 

Its super interesting but the reality is nobody has ever conclusively proved it matters for our sport. That in itself is interesting. There is argument and debate but if it is as simple, calculatable and basic physics as you say then why is there so much debate and discussion ? Is it because shooters have and haven’t seen the difference after firing billions or rounds downrange ?

Ok so ...

1. It is a small effect. The errors inherent in the numerical models are likely to vary and on such a small effect may well produce different results depending on their exact initial configuration. How about that?

2. Confucius say "Man with two watches never knows the time". Who says he is wrong, maybe he has  a better model. Plenty other software has spin drift and coriolis options, as you point out. So why the cynicism?

3. They have other things to worry about for now that generate bigger errors? As the game progresses that may not always be the case. There are heaps of scientific advances that are don't have practical usage for decades. The AI algorithms were written tens of years ago but until we got big data, cheap compute, and the ability to load large databases across multiple processors they weren't much use. You can't just advance science when it suits you. Just wait until you can profile the wind with a laser.

As for the rest of it, you are being obtuse and I will leave you to it.

They are all better than mine ! 😀

Quite right too. Nothing more boring that looking at someone else's shooting scores. Well that's not really true, its listening to them tell you how they ended up with that score. 🙉

8 hours ago, Montey said:

see Six Point Five Guys ten shot ladder testing on you tube for load development I've been running proven loads in different callibers and found I've arrived at the same powder wait. Also I've used this method on a new rifle and I'm very pleased with the results. Also a new powder bullet in my stalking 308 again looking promising.

See thread elsewhere on this site for debate on validity (or otherwise) of said methodology.

8 minutes ago, TJC said:

I went to a course in the US. I was the only one shooting a SFP MOA. Learnt the hard way and now only run FFP MIL. 

Easier if everyone shoots the same thing right enough.

11 hours ago, Catch-22 said:

Using the fine hash marks on the H2CMR on the S&B 5x25-56 FFP, I'm able to spot the 'splash' or even bullet holes then use the reticle to accurately measure the number of MILs needed to correct the shot. No guess work, no placing the scope on a certain power or doing silly mathematic conversions. Count the MILs and dial them. 

Which is exactly what I do with my MOA/MOA system, using the reticle as a ruler.

Why MOA? That was what was for sale at an attractive price.  The only benefit I can see are that remembering the 10mph wind numbers are really easy for my hunting load as they correlate directly to the 100 yard multiple. Not the biggest reason,  eh.

I look at the equivalent MIL model and think the turret is a lot less noisy and would be easier to read, with my worsening eyesight. Maybe not, out of focus is out of focus. Not paying £2k+ to find out.

An angle is an angle is an angle. 

31 minutes ago, bradders said:

No it hasn’t, I think it’s a great idea and wish it well

there was a very short lived post on here advertising the match at Gardner’s, but no sooner was it posted then it was gone

its all about getting people to take part, some of you seem to make that as difficult as possible, and the entry fees certainly don’t seem to help, but you have a situation in that this forum is the main advertising mechanism for this new venture and they’re no shortage of people with suitable equipment, but none of them will take the bait and enter and support the matches, and without that support it’s going to take an awful long time to gain acceptance, and until then you will just have the same couple of dozen people at the matches

We used to struggle until we finally convinced people to use their rifles in a way they were so designed for and we used to get 15-20 entries and 30 seemed like a good number, but we persevered and look where we are now....approaching max capacity

Vince himself said on here that 100yd BR numbers were around 20 and not growing, why is that?

Our formula seems to work and you all need to be a bit more open

The sport makes it too hard to play. Everyone has the probation before you can join no matter what other memberships/qualifications/authorisations you have. Well fine, but they expect me to drive x hundred miles to shoot in their comp (for which I miraculously am qualified) but I can't shoot at the club on other days without jumping through loads of hoops/ additional expense/ on some poxy 100 yard range before I am allowed onto the range that I can shoot the comp on?  How does anyone expect to grow a sport with a crap attitude like that?

I don't get any of that sh*t with the shotgun so I shoot in competition all over Europe and I can turn up to any ground with my cert and shoot whatever I feel like.  I know where my $ will be spent...

except a wife....

12 hours ago, snakeman said:

Of more important concern is you're "still looking for a new rifle for over a year"

 

Not really.  If you have definite features/performance in mind it is easy.  The majority of production rifles have features which are more about cost than function and if you don't want to accept that then there is a bit of a hunt for a rifle that does not compromise in areas that you deem important. Combine that with calibre choice and off you go.

What is it that the PRC gives us that we can't already get ?

Not sure I really want to ask this, but can't resist...

Do they really do this ?

I don't think they do it up here ? Waste of time, how is ground safe for 222 but not 308 ??

Good man that's excellent. I made a set by hand last year and it was a revelation. Bit fiddly to do though so the website is a great help

George, 220 grn at 2659? Wow, I think I'm gonna need bedding compound rather than Fixodent :-)

Got some 208 Amax to 2650 on a non SAAMI coal. Bit stiffer but nothing to write home about. Rode the wind well but was hardly flat. Seemed to defeat the point to me, would be better off with another cartridge 6.5 or 6 if you want the windage but with flatter trajectory or 3006/300WM if you really want to throw a bullet that weight. Fun trying though.

Not as much fun as 200 gr Subsonic I digress...

I can see the stalker inviting the esteemed overseas guest to carry his own rifle. Now I lug a heavy thing up the hill but I don't fancy that one.

There may be some estates that would let someone shoot at extended ranges but I would be very surprised? Its some wind call required on a shitty day up the hill to drop a stag at a mile. Or alternatively give the deer a miles head start when you wing it. Good luck on keeping up with the stalked...

It's just not gong to happen is it - I suspect the OP would find that estates are 'fully booked'.

These things are good but every day is different . different humidity.temperature etc etc.you would need 12 different turrets too allow for all the variables.

Well yes and no. Clearly at the extremes yes, the firing solution becomes more sensitive to a range of variables and needs more precise calculation particularly for small targets. That's why you have the MOA/Mil sub tensions on the tape. Nothing stopping you using it in that mode.

However it is also a no. Atmospherics are not a key fundamental at all ranges; it is possible to just use an 'offset' for the atmospherics in many circumstances (for me at least); for larger targets where speed is required then the drop calcs are done offline giving a faster but still pretty accurate shot.

So for short and medium ranges I can dial in a faster elevation correction while still retaining the flexibility of the original scope sub tensions.

All very clever.

In reality I can see that damn numbers in the field without my glasses...

Excellent. Thanks for this. Worked perfectly. Except my eyesight !

Rolled a hunting version for my 624i - i.e. big letters. Very neat, I can just whip it off and put on a range version.

I think you are doing yourself to describe that as DIY !

 

I've tried scopes from all the big players and in my opinion and that of my eyes, not one of them beats Swarovski glass. The only one to come close is the Vortex Razor HD Gen II and that too has a price north of £2000. Stunning glass costs money, just ask any photographer.

Yes, but that's the point. It's a sight not a telescope. So great glass that's given (you would hope) but that is only one of at least 3 attributes of a top end scope in todays market.

A good sight makes it easier for the shooter to make the shot in whatever game. So this particular product needs to be judged on that basis and I am afraid it fails in comparison to the competition in the long range hunting market that it is targeted at. Good glass is only one element.

To have entered the marked at that price point with a second focal plane scope is a mistake. Producing software products that will support the shooter by telling him how much the sub tensions are worth at various magnifications is a poor attempt to make up for this failure. It introduces risk and unnecessary complexity into the shot.

Now whether this is a failure on their part to understand their business, an inability to manufacture the product or is Group politics i.e. Kahles are in that space so your brand is not allowed to encroach, I know not and don't really care.

Swarovski are pushing an out of date approach and product. Part of the point of forums such as these is to allow the exchange of information which will allow potential buyers to make informed choices. Your opinion is valuable as it is one side of a valid debate, as are the counter arguments.

It's Swarovski and the glass is great should not make it immune from criticism and does not serve anyone well, least of all Swarovski who need a wake up call.