barrel break in by an icon in bbl's and guns

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

we all have heard of gale mcmillan not just for stocks but for his world famous rifles and target winning accurate barrels

 

this may shock some of you but barrel break in is false

 

I found this about five years ago and its not the first time the legend stuck to his guns over this (sorry pardon the pun)

From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>

Newsgroups: rec.guns

Subject: Re: Barrel break-in necessary?

Date: 7 Jan 1997 20:40:25 -0500

 

Mike Sumner wrote:

> ...

 

As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels

with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the

prescribed break in method A very large number would do more harm than

help. The reason you hear of the help in accuracy is because if you

chamber barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting

clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the

rifling. It takes from 1 to 2 hundred rounds to burn this bur out and

the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle

barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories

let them go longer than any competent smithe would. Another tidbit to

consider, Take a 300Win Mag. that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds.

Use 10% of it up with your break in procedure for ever 10 barrels the

barrel maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the

break in. no wonder barrel makers like to see this. Now when you flame

me on this please include what you think is happening to the inside of

your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

 

Gale McMillan

NBSRA IBS,FCSA and NRA Life Member

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

From: Gale McMillan <mcmillan@getnet.com>

Newsgroups: rec.guns

Subject: Re: Good barrels for Rem 700 in .308?

Date: 10 Feb 1996 12:50:53 -0500

 

Consider this, every round shot in breaking in a barrel is one round off

the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical

reason of what happens during break in firing. In other words to the

number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the

barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by

shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off

with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden a

friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who

come up with the break in method. He may think he has come upon

something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel

that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that

deteriorates until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what

physically takes place during break in to modify the barrel then I may

change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel doesn't change

because of the break in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open

to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just

someone's opinion forget it.

 

Gale McMillan

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

From: Gale McMillan <" gale"@mcmfamily.com>

Newsgroups: rec.guns

Subject: Re: Remington 700 break in

Date: 8 Aug 1997 00:01:07 -0400

 

Arthur Sprague wrote:

 

# On 29 Jul 1997 22:50:26 -0400, whit@cs.utexas.edu (John W. Engel)

# wrote:

#

# #This is how (some) benchrester break in barrels, and it does work.

# #The mechanism is that the bore has pores in it (microns in size).

# #If you simply shoot a box or two through it without cleaning, the

# #pores fill up with gilding metal, and stay that way. If you

# #follow the above procedure (and they mean *clean* between shots!),

# #the pores are "smoothed over" with each successive shot. A barrel

# #correctly broken in is MUCH easier to clean than one that is

# #not. If it is a good quality tube, it will also be more accurate.

# #Regards,

# #whit

#

# Well, the range hours here are quite limited. On my first trip I

# managed to fire a whole fourteen rounds, with a thorough cleaning

# after each round. It couldn't hurt! Fun gun! Difficult to think of

# .223 as a battle round after experience with .30-06 and .45ACP, but it

# surely going to be a pleasure to shoot.

# Thanks to all for their advice.

 

This is total hogwash! It all got started when a barrel maker that I

know started putting break in instructions in the box with each barrel

he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help

and his reply was If they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel

that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just

figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point it

defiantly will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a

fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset bench rest world

records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at

one time) along with HighPower,Silloett,smallbore national and world

records and my instructions were to clean as often as posable preferably

every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel

before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I

see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from

normal wear and tear.I am even reading about people recommending

breaking in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the

guns.

Gale Mc.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I have also read of and in his own words...david tub seasons his rifles before shooting comps by 40 ish rounds then wont clean for several hundred+ rounds ish

 

dont kill the messenger but if your experienced enough you will know of gale mcmillan and will trust his word RIP

Index Home About

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

oh yeh in another forum about the same topic Gale says that he voided a warrantee of the user used jb paste and he recond that with a bore scope he can tell if jb or other abrasive has been used

 

he says it only undoes what the barrel maker has gone to a lot of trouble to do by hand lapping

 

I have also read border barrels quoting that some remington rifles take a couple hundred rounds of fouling before they shot well

[Redfox]

Shoot and clean, shoot and clean, Just enjoy.

Even allowing for Gales experience as barrel maker and comp shooter and I have much of his writings which I always enjoy reading and usually find something new in.

There are certain engineering principles you can not get round, one of them being, whatever the applied finish, "in service conditions" in the initial use do have an effect and finalise the process.

I have found that with all the new barrels / rifles I have had and those of others too, where I have developed a load for them etc, that changes take place in the first 20 -100 rounds.

You cannot force a piece of copper bar ( which is what your bullet is effectively) up a tube well finished or otherwise, with the sort of pressure and speed generated in a firearm, without affecting the surface to some degree.

Based on many years of engineering experience I follow a particular sequence whilst zeroing and then developing a load. I have always found that after a non specific number of rounds and cleaning, ( depends on barrel material and finish internally) that the patches come out cleaner and are easier to push up the barrel, in other words it has got "smoother" and is building up less copper/carbon debris on its surface.

I do not subscribe to a long and complicated process of "running in a barrel" it does as he says just waste some of the barrel life.

Just to put it in perspective, a modern car and its mechanical parts ( engine, gearbox, wheel bearings etc) are machined and built to standards that 20 yrs ago would not have been achievable at a price any of us could afford. The surface finish on the surfaces of say the crankshaft and cylinder bores is exceptionally fine and way past anything a barrel maker could achieve.

The makers no longer recommend so many miles not exceeding this speed and so many more up to another and so on. However tucked away in the small print is the advice to drive it carefully and not labour it in high gears at first!, very loose and convenient, but an admission that a bedding in/ smoothing process is taking place.

One of the most telling indicators is the temperature gauge, at the beginning it goes up quickly and stays a little higher, then depending on engine type and size it will begin to drop a little and take longer to get up to temperature, this is the smoothing process taking effect on components machined to very fine tolerances and running bathed in a quality oil lubricant!.

 

Going back to barrels, a match grade barrel with hand lapping is a lot nearer the finished article than a factory rifle with a "as machined barrel" , but some of the hammer forged ones are very good today and very quickly "bed in".

Will now wait for the "incoming"

Redfox

P.S I have only just touched on the subject of materials and finishing and their behaviour in use, it would fill volumes and serve little purpose here.

[ejg223]

We all agree that barrels do wear.

So between a new barrel and a dead one material is burnt or

worn away. Just my experience tells me that this wear will not

take place evenly but rather highest wear rate at the beginning

and then slow down. High wear rate means friction changes and

possibly shot placement.

I also believe after an undefined ammount of rounds the rifle

should be more consistent.

But it might also be good enough to shoot right away.

 

Not all rifles are equal

 

edi

[Orka Akinse]

Well I aint no engineer so I touch my hat to you boys that are.

 

You tell me to break it in I break it in. You tell me not to I might not do it BUT....

 

I agree with you Redfox something happens but what, I don't know cos I aint an engineer and at the end of the day what is 10 or 20 rounds, after all you will go through a lot more developing loads that you get a percieved value from putting down range.

 

A barrel life is a barrel life and like all life it has a predetermined expectancy of survival but how you treat it along the way will only shorten or extended it but when it reaches that point its knackered. So unless someone tells me that breakin a barrel in shortens its life what can you loose?

[Redfox]

Well, I always clean the barrel on a new rifle , for two reasons, it may have dirt/abrasive bits in it from manufacture and /or in the case of an import with whom we dont have a CIP agreement it will have been to Birmingham or London proof house to pass proof test and so been fired and quickly cleaned? by someone and oiled.

So I regard a clean as an absolute necessity before any firing.

I fire a test shot with a reduced from max load, and clean again, then fire 3-4 shot groups to zero and test the increasing loads with a normal quick clean in between. Having got a zero and a series of test loads fired I go home and give it an overnight soak/thorough clean, Pick the best appearing load and one either side make up enough rounds for a final group / zeroing and go again to fire it with a quick clean in between groups and then clean after each outing or ten rounds if doing further development after that.

Now in the case of the last new Remington I bought it was about 50 rounds before it settled down to normal cleaning etc, In the case of the last new Sako ( barrel) after about 15 rounds it was noticeably easier to clean and the patches whistled through, also the Sako had not been anywhere near the proof house as we accept Finnish proof as being ok but not the American one as they, if I remember correctly do not test fire every weapon only a sample quantity.

This works for me and is not wasting ammo firing at nothing to bed a barrel in, I am setting up the loads and zero which I would have to do anyway, but cleaning a bit more often on the first shots as that is where most changes/work is being done.

Redfox

[Elwood]

Well, I always clean the barrel on a new rifle , for two reasons, it may have dirt/abrasive bits in it from manufacture and /or in the case of an import with whom we dont have a CIP agreement it will have been to Birmingham or London proof house to pass proof test and so been fired and quickly cleaned? by someone and oiled.

So I regard a clean as an absolute necessity before any firing.

 

Aint that the truth. The most copper I have ever removed from my Sako TRG is when I cleaned the barrel before I had ever put a shot through it.

 

Ian

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

I thought cylinder bores were score honed in multi directional ways to retain lube????

 

must be wrong

 

I can polish well bellow 10u-inRa(0.25um) so I know a bit about polishing

 

your bbl often arrives to you after being fired on average three times one after the other at the proof house before it is cleaned so whats the point then of saying right I have got a brand new unfired bbl so I will shoot one clean one with reduced loads???????????????

 

the proof house used well over maximum loads one after the other before cleaning

 

if that dont spiral staircase the barrel then not breaking it in after its already been what considered the wrong way to brake it in is a waste of time

 

oh well must be just me thats seeing something wrong hear or is it a case of some are wearing blinkers and not wanting to see the truth

 

dude's you barrel shot three stunkin hot loads one after the other without cleaning in between before ya got it

[Redfox]

Cylinders are indeed honed to retain lube but very fine on factory ones and the cylinder is machined to very fine tolerances these days and is in fact tapered, but I was quoting an engine as a for instance of ever better finishes but still the running ( friction ) of parts against each other still produces changes. As many barrel makers will tell you , fine finish is not everything, in fact it can be too smooth.

As for the proof house, yes your dead right particularly Bham, I have seriously thought about importing my own non CIP rifles and doing the various as said and only proofing if and when I decide to sell. But it makes it even more important to clean it after they have done what they do.

The reduced loads are the proper start of any load development and as stated above I do not do fireone clean fire one etc. Three rounds blasted through over pressure may not be good but barrel seasoning for want of a better word takes place over a number of rounds not just three and in that case would seem to be even more important.

 

In the case of Sako/ Tikka I dont have that problem as the factory has done the proving and they do care about what they sell.

A friend in the trade spent several days there last year and was very favourably impressed with the factory and perhaps more important the people there.

Redfox

[Guest 308Panther]

In the case of engines there is going to be a certain amount of run in,

as the part relationships bed,and its the same piston going up and down in cyl #1

But in the case of guns and bullets....

Jacket thickeness's and concentricity are gonna vary from lot to lot just the same as

any factory loaded ammo is gonna vary from lot to lot.

 

 

Just clean 'em and shoot 'em...Clean 'em and shoot 'em.

 

308Panther