Advice on next rifle... .300 vs .260 vs something else

[gbal]

Sample of better SAAMI loads,24 inch barrel:

 

300WM Rem 190 Match KIng @2900 BC .533 drop/drift at 1000y 10 mph 288/78 inches

 

308 Rem 175 Match King @ 2600 BC 2600 BC.496 388/100

 

260 Rem nosler 140 Part @2800 BC.490 332/93

 

The 20" better wind drift is a help (drop diff matters little since has to be dialled in anyhow.

 

300WM has an edge beyond this-308 is getting stretched by 1000y,marginally stabilised (many loads just can't hack it)

 

Shorter barrels will do even less well in 308 esp.Very heavy 308-220g-might help,heavy recoil though.168g are often hopeless at 1000,with a few exceptions but never the best choice-they go walkabouts around 700-boat tail angle issues-classic example that BC/weight alone isn't whole story at extreme ranges.

 

Others will comment on costs-300WM will be higher,as will be recoil.

 

260 Rem is superior to 308,but can't match the best 300WM loads.260AI helps. 260 is probably the best of the current common 6.5s,but again not an ideal 1000y cartridge-on it's limits.

 

All are eclipsed quite easily by the big 7mms. You don't seem to want to consider those,but that is the better route if you want genuine good 1000y performance.That said,1/2 moa is achievable in good conditions,though in the same conditions the 300Wm and esp 7mms would do even better....laws of physics win in this application of shootable rifles to 1000y+.

 

gbal

[jcampbellsmith]

Mac

 

It all depends what you want to do. I've 2 x 260 Rem and 2 x 308 Win currently. I suggest getting down behind different versions of both calibres and see what they can do for you. My go to rifle for stalking is - http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/gallery/member-galleries/p2948-remington-700-sa-in-260-rem.html

 

Regards

 

JCS

[Mac.308]

Cheers guy,

 

I'd like to have a credible shot facility when the club and work guys go back beyond 1100m even in ropey met.

 

To a few shots but got onto the steel with the AT308 on a pretty windy day at 1130m but took a lot.

 

I didn't even take it out the bag when the guys went to 1450+.

 

And can't justify the expense of a .338 as it'd hardly get used due to every week range restrictions.

[Shuggy]

Mac, the headspace instructions in the manuals are identical for the AX308, AXMC and AT. With the greatest respect to your mate, as long as the barrel headspace has been checked by a competent gunsmith, there is absolutely no reason why an AT cannot be run as a switch barrel. The coloured markings on the AXMC are there as a safety device for matching the right calibre barrel to the right bolt. They have nothing whatsoever do to with headspace.

[Mac.308]

Yes they do. As you screw the barrel onto the AXMC as long as all the red section of the barrel is in a certain place bingo... It's on properly. Not an indication of matching parts. 2 mins on the back of the range. No head space check at all.

 

As I said the AT wasn't designed as a quick calibre change weapon. Yes a gunsmith could do he change but it's not a case of, 2 mins on the range like the AXMC. I've used the AXMC myself and switched it from .308 to .338 when my mate brought it up to Orion.

 

Anyway...

 

I'm getting the feel that .260 is good however .300 will pip it at longer ranges... Makes sense I suppose (load depending)

[tackb]

Forgot to say , the 260 is a reload option only for long range style loads , as are most calibre's to be honest if your serious ?

 

Oh and mildot is right the 260 smashes the 308 at long range.

[Mac.308]

Yep but does it smash the 300?

 

My options:

 

Stick with 308

Buy 260

Buy 300

[tackb]

Yep but does it smash the 300?

My options:

Stick with 308

Buy 260

Buy 300

It does not , I'd go with one of the big 7mm's in your position

[Mac.308]

Bugger...mthe one rifle I haven't sourced or even thought about. Lol

 

Anymore info on 7?

[jcampbellsmith]

http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/7mm/ plus have a look at the beauties Ronin has up for sale on here. Regards JCS

[Mac.308]

Cheers J

[gbal]

Mac,I gave the relevant data for 260,308and 300 in post *26 above,and also said the bigger 7s are really the better option.

If you want to play at 1200and 1400 yards,then even the 7s are running out of horsepower-you are really into the start of 338 territory,and that isn't cheap. Big toys needed for big boys games,if you want to play them.

The 7 Shehane is a good cartridge,a very good 1000y cartridge,will stretch a bit more-but is a custom number,and costs accordingly.Ditto the 7 and 30 WSMs and RAUM/RUms-though you might get a factory rifle in those-but it will be a mag hunting design....you will also be toasting barrels way under 1000 rounds.

Perhaps a hard look at realities is needed-some of the advice-168g 308 for 1000+??? is ...errr unhelpful-of course 1000y with good 308 and shooting skill is entirely possible,but it is almost despite the cartridge,rather than because of it-there is a reason 1000y 308 shooters go for long barrels-the cartridge needs every fps it can get at 1000.

I think if you want to have reasonable performance for the 1000++,you need a 338,or a top performance 7/30...it probably can't be done with a lesser cartridge on any consistent basis,except under near no wind conditions.

Look at what 1000+ shooters are using....it's not 308 class,when they have a choice.Hit occasionally,after walking in -OK-as you have found,but beyond !000 even that gets increasingly desperate.Nothing has been said to change that ...750 y is relatively easy peasy for everything mentioned,1000 is pushing,and 1250+ is a long shot indeed for anything under 338L-which will go a fair bit longer of course.

The figures are clear ,the results of real shooters available.

300Win Mag might be a good 1000-1200 cartridge choice-the military are a guide....308...300WM...338L as distances increase....it's about right.However...

 

If you want to run F1,an Aston Martin won't do,nor a production Ferrari.....good though these are in their class.

So too with cartridges.

Do I want/need F1?(1400y).... is a more appropriate question! If you do,then AI in 338L is your baby-I would not presume to suggest which model.

Good luck with this project,though,once you have worked through it all!

gbal

[mikeroz]

Mac,

I've run a Barnard SM action as a switch barrel for nigh on 9 years now. I have a barrel vice that I've secured to two lengths of pine sufficiently long enough for me to stand on when changing the barrel away from home, and an action wrench. I've never had any head space problems. If both barrels are properly engineered and you invest in a good torque wrench and torque up to the same each time it's no problem. Yes it's fiddly and I get lots of do gooders asking me why I bother but so what. The fiddlyness is a problem because if I were to be honest I don't use both calibres as much as I would if I had two rifles.

Not too far away from you, I'd be happy to show you my setup so you can atleast ponder over such an option with your AT.

Regards

Mike

[Mac.308]

Cheers gbal, food for thought as most of these posts are. Mulling it over.

 

Mike, I'm not playing the barrel changing game... Thanks for the offer though.

[baldie]

I own, or have owned , all these calibers and now run a bog standard .308 AXMC.

 

Shot it once at 1000 in the National practical rifle champs at Diggle, and beat every other calibre [.260,s , 308,s 6mm,s ] at 1000 yards with a pretty good score in the usual Diggle wind.

 

That was with the Lapua accuracy load for the 167 Scenar.

 

I learnt the "too many guns " lesson a long time ago. Hence 3 cabinets full of safe queens.

 

.308 will do all you want, if you are prepared to put in the time and effort required to learn its nuances.

 

Another good example was the last McQueens at Diggle.

 

I shot a perfect score of 100 ex 100. Again, beating every calibre going, including all the 6.5,s and hot 6,s.

 

The internet is a marvellous place, but NOTHING beats trigger time and real world experience.

[Mac.308]

Cheers Baldie

 

Sound advice.

 

Know what you mean about too many rifle... Seen friends do this a lot. I only have the 1 at the min.

 

I'm getting plenty of trigger time but not at the distances I'd like to be practicing on... 100 to 300m mostly.

 

I think the rounds could be something to look at... Hmmmm

 

Cheers dude.

[tackb]

I own, or have owned , all these calibers and now run a bog standard .308 AXMC.

 

Shot it once at 1000 in the National practical rifle champs at Diggle, and beat every other calibre [.260,s , 308,s 6mm,s ] at 1000 yards with a pretty good score in the usual Diggle wind.

 

That was with the Lapua accuracy load for the 167 Scenar.

 

I learnt the "too many guns " lesson a long time ago. Hence 3 cabinets full of safe queens.

 

.308 will do all you want, if you are prepared to put in the time and effort required to learn its nuances.

 

Another good example was the last McQueens at Diggle.

 

I shot a perfect score of 100 ex 100. Again, beating every calibre going, including all the 6.5,s and hot 6,s.

 

The internet is a marvellous place, but NOTHING beats trigger time and real world experience.

 

whilst you are an excellent shot and rifle builder baldie surely you must agree that for the op's original request (1200m+ shooting) 308 Winchester in any shape or form is running out of legs , even if you manage to find a transonic tolerant bullet it's still asking a lot of it to reach out beyond 1200m with any sort of consistency? (be great fun trying , I did with my 20'' 308 and found 800m to be my reliable max distance)

[gbal]

+1 on Tackb's post,Dave.

 

A fairer summary is that your impressive shooting-at distance-is despite the 308s limitations,rather than because it is an excellent 1000 y cartridge.

Shorter ranges-to 750 ish- it's a good all rounder.Recoil can hardly be an advantage at McQueen's (but a moderator helps.)

 

Are the hot 7s conspicuously absent from your long range scalps?

They of course represent current thinking-reality!-on the best ballistic/shootability balance.A 308w with 220g bullets BC .62 @2650 gets close enough ballistically,but....ouch!(Unless it's 23+ lb weight).It will last a long time.

 

As a generality,it seems to me better to use a cartridge that is not at the extreme end of it's performance envelope for any application,near running on empty(going transonic,technically here).

Post is whether there is something a bit better than 308 for 1000+ that does not need £mega (as it won't see much use).Not easy,300WM must be a contender. Or settle for much near missing with the 308,and take some relative pleasure in pushing it that far.Less wear on gongs too. :-)

 

gbal

[Mac.308]

The nail has been hit... Well put gbal, cheers mate

[dannywayoflife]

I would look at the 284 win personally over the 300 mate

[gbal]

I like the Shehane,a kind of Ackleyed 284 win.

 

The 284 though was a commercially failed attempt to provide 270w clout in a lever action (win 88),the 270 of course being a necked down 30-06.The 284 was a bit short on grunt,really-as is the 280 Rem-both great hunting cartridges though.

The 284 was later recognised as a very fine balance of pop and shootability-aided perhaps by being fashionably short and fat,which others were not (280,7 Rem mag eg),and despite having a rebatted rim,became a successful 1000y option,rightly so.

But it is the calibre, really the ballistics of the 7mm bullets-good BC-that make it,not the cartridge's great puff-which is well good enough,but less than the old 30-06 etc.

Is it a better no holds barred 1200+ cartridge than the 300WM....probably not,even as Shehane. The military stick with 300wm until a few hundred yards more dictates the 338L.

The (short) super magnums and ultramags etc (Win and Rem) have rather taken over for 1000 (+a bit) target shooting,about as much as can be handled (for fast shooting-same wind-and rest steadiness,and maybe shoulder integrity).The serious boomers (30 378,30 338) will do it of course-but that's just too much of everything for most of us....

.....even more so ....the 500 BUPA ? (you'll know when you fire it.....don't ask) !!

 

gbal

[dannywayoflife]

Yep I agree with that gbal but I'd look at the 284 personally as it's a nice medium returning good balistic and barrel life. However ewen from dta Europe has really done me in and I'm now thinking about a 30-338 barrel it's Bisley legal too

[baldie]

 

whilst you are an excellent shot and rifle builder baldie surely you must agree that for the op's original request (1200m+ shooting) 308 Winchester in any shape or form is running out of legs , even if you manage to find a transonic tolerant bullet it's still asking a lot of it to reach out beyond 1200m with any sort of consistency? (be great fun trying , I did with my 20'' 308 and found 800m to be my reliable max distance)

 

 

Yep, just re read the original post. I,m somewhat guilty of forgetting the original remit.

 

This guy has a very common problem. He wants a "jack of all trades", and up to a 1000 yards its the .308.

 

However, I get asked this an awful lot and I always ask, just how many times a year the shooter will be shooting 1000 yards plus ? It usually transpires its one or two visits a year.

 

Is it really worth equipping with a specialist rifle just for those two visits ?

 

The .308 ticks all the boxes that people usually require, in that it mag feeds, there is a wealth of ammo, both commercial and milsurp available, plus a huge range or reloading components, and all of which are almost always in stock in any gunshop.

 

However, all is not lost. There is a slightly better option that would just about cover the extra distance.

 

7mm-08.

 

Same case as 308, similar powders etc, just a better bc bullet.

 

It is also available as a genuine Accuracy international calibre , from the factory, unlike 260 or 6.5 x 47. You could order one to fit your AT.

 

However, the perfect weapon does exist....its the large chassis AI AXMC with .308 , .300 , and 338 barrels and bolts. Thick end of 12K though.

[gbal]

Yep I agree with that gbal but I'd look at the 284 personally as it's a nice medium returning good balistic and barrel life. However ewen from dta Europe has really done me in and I'm now thinking about a 30-338 barrel it's Bisley legal too

If you can use it,and want it,Danny,go for it.

 

Then someone can express an opinion on whether it's a cartridge that is suitable for anything LESS than 1000y plus !

 

g

[dannywayoflife]

It's certainly on my list at the mo. But then so is the new 223 conversion.

 

Mac are you 100% set on an AI? As the dta is a platform that would suit your needs nicley