Rifle cleaning

[riflemanread]

Hi guys after cleaning my barrel ( i use a mix of kroil and mc7 patch out then extra strength copper remover bristle brush then patches then back to the kroil/mc7 mix patch out till dry then every 100 rounds j b paste) i do this every time i shoot the rifle i have noticed accuracy goes off untill i shoot 5 or 6 rounds.

I would have thaught a clean barrel would give a better group so am i doing something wrong like cleaning too often or something.

The rifle is a tikka t3 varmint in 25-06 and is standard apart from set trigger and t8 mod.

Any advice would be most welcome thanks lads.

Andy.

[Guest Scott Elliott]

I had a CZ 527 in 223 that was a decent shooter. I started to jb it everytime I cleaned and begun to have the same problem your having.

Scott

[baldie]

Are you removing the kroil before you shoot? Which jb paste are you using? the rough, or the smooth?

[Guest Smeagle]

How many rounds have been through the barrel all up, whats the bore like?

 

It could be that it likes the heat for the load and nothing to do with the cleaning at all. Or if it has just started doing it then it could be wear and the fouling is holding it tighter.

[Redfox]

JB paste is an abrasive , fine or coarse makes no difference. It is the last thing I would put down a decent barrel, your just accellerating the wear. It also bells the barrel at both ends, due to the action of the rod and paste.

A decent copper solvent and an all brass brush are all thats needed to clean the barrel and give the solvent time to work, half a dozen shots leave it an hour or so, more than that I leave Hoppes benchrest 9 in over night, then patch until dry ( Hoppes benchrest 9 has a corrosion inhibiter in it some others dont). Forest bore foam seems pretty good too.

If you put a bag of silica gel in your cabinet and cook it in the oven ( 70 degC ) every couple of months, you will never have a rust problem anyway.

All my rifles shoot the first round from a clean barrel right in the middle of the point of aim every time ( unless I cock up of course)

Many custom barrel makers invalidate any guarantee if you put JB or any other abrasive anywhere near their barrels.

Many people just clean their barrels once in a way and not aggresively and still shoot very well.

I prefer to start with a clean barrel but just brush the solvent in let it work and patch the barrel out, it works for me.

Redfox

[riflemanread]

Hi lads the barrel has only shot 240 rounds and shoots really well the jb paste is the non embedding stuff and has been used once.

The barrel is patched out until completely dry then i usally run a bore mop through just to make sure nothing left in the barrel at all.

Thanks lads Andy

[Redfox]

Well keep the JB stuff well away from it!, Sako Tikka hammer forged barrels are some of the best there are and dont need JB to keep them clean.

As above just give a half dozen strokes with solvent and bronze brush ( Baldie can probably help with those)absolutely must use a proper bore guide, then leave to soak, give another couple of strokes with brass brush and solvent and patch out till the patches come clean.

It should shoot right from the off, cold barrel first shot to your zero.

Youre not to far from Baldies second home, why not let him check it over for screw tightness, barrel to stock clearance etc, out your mind at rest an find any problem if there is one.

I have a Tikka 595 in 6.5x55 and I can take it out of the cabinet and fire three-four shots all into a tight group on zero. I do not oil the barrel inside when I put it away , the hoppes benchrest has protector in it and the silica gel is available in bags from any good packaging firm, get a couple of half kilo bags and use as above and you wont have any trouble. The oil in the barrel takes 4-5 shots to clear and may be your problem.

Redfox

PS I have a tub of JB I used some on a really bad old enfield 303 SMLE, it did help that, but I just use it as a paper weight until iget another similar thing to play with.

[Guest Smeagle]

That's good advice, with my Sako's all I do is scrub a bit with a copper brush with some Hoppes and patch out, nothing more. Hammer forged barrels are hard and thus quite brittle they don't like abrasive materials.

 

You like the Smlies, there are still loads of them out here knocking around.

[Vermincinerator]

I only ever used JB when i had some extremely heavy copper fouling caused by some very hot loads in my 243 Ackley, i would not put it anywhere near a barrel unless it was in the above condition.

Redfox is correct about the possible bell-mouthing of the muzzle.

When you buy a new barrel blank from a custom barrel maker, they reccommend you cut of at least the first half inch of the muzzle to eliminate the bell-mouthing caused by the final lapping of the bore.

 

Ian.

[Redfox]

Yes Ive had that with a Kreiger barrel I bought Ian, it had a notch about 1 3/4 inches from the muzzle, with a note to say why.

The old Smellies are still well rated in some quarters and if I remember, british army shooters had the highest rate of accurate fire in a BA with these. Dont know it they still got them but our armoury at REME Hq had row on row of them greased up and ready if needed, they modded quite a few to 7.62 as well, just nice to have a play with.

Redfox

[Vermincinerator]

Red,

Had the notch but no note

 

Ian.

[riflemanread]

Thanks for the info guys i will leave the jb paste at home from now on

Thanks lads Andy

[onehole]

Very rarely use JB nowadays preferring to use a decent strength copper remover,give it time to do its job and then kroil out,job done.This regime works on the custom barrels or those of higher quality factory barrels but have had very good reason to use JB in the past particularly on a 223 pss I once had and a walther barrelled 6br RPA which just loved to foul up quite quickly?If you do use JB then there is a short stroke method of working it which I dont think will bell end your barrel.Our good friend Varminter used JB quite often on his old PPC barrel if I remember correctly and was still shooting good as ever at around 4k before he decided to rebarrel.Not sure what he does now but with the better copper removers now available over here I think most barrels will respond well to a soak rather than over use of JB.Good luck.onehole

[Guest varmartin]

Same as one hole, I dont use JB much any more...no need as my Kreiger barrel 6Br does not copper foul at all !

Just use a nylon brush and shooters shoice extra strength copper remover let soak for 5 mins or so and patch out with Kroil. I have not seen any blue on patches with this barrel ever since the first 20 rounds down the pipe just black on the patches. Those patches were blue as berries when pushed through, then it suddenly stopped never to return.

 

Very similar results with my Sako .223 VLS, only very slight blue on the odd occasion, a little bit of JB or KG2 gets it out with ease.

 

Martin

[Vermincinerator]

Norman Clark showed me a piece of barrel from a rifle he had just re-barrelled, where the rifling had all but been polished away by over vigorous use of JB.

When Norman asked what had happened the owner replied "The patch kept on coming out black so i carried on cleaning"

 

Ian

[baldie]

Jb paste has its place, and its not routine cleaning. I,ve ressurected quite a few punters barrels with it, but its not for general cleaning at all. My favourite [and i,ve tried most of them] is butch,s bore shine, montana extreme is also very good, but these really need to be used with nylon brushes, otherwise you will get false blue indications on your patches.People usually are in too much of a rush , cleaning. The other major fault is not removing the carbon properly, before attempting to get at the copper. Hands up, who doesn,t use a good carbon remover first? the copper wont come out, unless the carbons gone first.

Sinclairs do brushes [best quality] for around 9 dollars a dozen, i bought 6 doz, last time, for various calibre,s , cheap as chips, so are their patches, and bore guides, no excuse really , is there.

[shootingbags]

Jb paste has its place, and its not routine cleaning. I,ve ressurected quite a few punters barrels with it, but its not for general cleaning at all. My favourite [and i,ve tried most of them] is butch,s bore shine, montana extreme is also very good, but these really need to be used with nylon brushes, otherwise you will get false blue indications on your patches.People usually are in too much of a rush , cleaning. The other major fault is not removing the carbon properly, before attempting to get at the copper. Hands up, who doesn,t use a good carbon remover first? the copper wont come out, unless the carbons gone first.

Sinclairs do brushes [best quality] for around 9 dollars a dozen, i bought 6 doz, last time, for various calibre,s , cheap as chips, so are their patches, and bore guides, no excuse really , is there.

I use Kroil 1st and it does seem to lift the carbon 1st. I then use Butches.

[Guest Rich.K]

For carbon try carbon killer, really good, no smell either

[Andrew]

The shift in zero/bad groups is natural until you've had a few "fouling" shots. At the risk of sounding like a hick, I'll vouch that I seldom give my barrels a "scrubbing" with anything. I use a Bore Snake with a drop of oil on the cloth and give it a pull through the barrel. If they are very badly fouled I deplate the barrel electrically. I seldom resort to that other than with a new, 2nd hand acquisition. Once clean it gets treated like any other rifle in the rack. As has been suggested, aggressive cleaning can impart a more detrimental variety of wear on a barrel than just shooting. I live in a rather dry climate so if I don't clean I won't be getting any moisture wicking from powder residue. In that light, I avoid it when I can. I have a pretty extensive group of firearms that all seem to shoot well and take no harm from this treatment. JMHO, of course...~Andrew

[Guest 308Panther]

The only time I've ever heard of anyone using any type of an abrasive is when its a older gun that was suspected of being extremely fouled...or in the case of lapping in a barrel when new to help speed the break-in.....

 

All I have ever used on mine is a bronze brush,Hoppe's #9...a couple dry patches followed by one or two lightly oiled patches.

 

308Panther

[325WSM]

The best and most effective way of cleaning copper and other residues from the barrel is a 'rod less' way so avoiding any additional chance of damage to the bore.

Use Outers Foul Out.

I guarantee you will be amazed at the results even on a 'clean' barrel.

 

I have used it for years now and it still surprises me just how much copper is left in the bore even if you use conventional bore cleaners first. The best part is that you can actually see just how much copper is being removed.

 

it will mean a US purchase as no one in the UK sells them since Edgars lost the concession.

[Andrew]

Rodless cleaning is best.

 

For heavy copper fouling I use an electric "deplating" device I made a couple of decades back. I shoot a lot of cast lead bullets and copper fouling is very detrimental to accuracy. One of the fellows in the Cast Bullet Association was an engineer. He developed this unit and published the schematics in the Journal. It basically uses a household-grade ammonia and a 1.5 Volt battery with the current channeled through a milliamp meter. It worked well enough that someone from RCBS contacted him and threatened to sue him if he didn't tell people not to make the device -which the poor guy did in the very next issue. They seemed to think it was a patent infringement on their "Foul Out" unit.

 

I was in college at the time I read this and had one of my profs help me set up an experiment in the Chem Lab using their hyper accurate laboratory scale and a section of barrel. I ran the unit for 120 hours continuously to see if there was any removal of material in the steel and the test came up negative. I have used it for better than twenty years now with no problems. I'd be happy to post a schematic and parts list for anyone wanting to make one of their own. The hardest part for me to find here was a 0 - 100 milliamp panel meter. Otherwise, any electronic shop will have everything you need. Current cost US is about $40 to build.

 

I collect Enfield service rifles and can remove 90 years worth of cupra-nickel fouling from the bore in about 40 minutes. After the unit is through, a patch soaked with hi grade copper solvent will come up with no "blue" on it. The average 30 year old sporting rifle takes about 15 minutes. I don't use this unit every time I clean, just when the fouling is heaviest. A pull through with a good bore solvent after every shooting seems to keep fouling to a minimum. (As do sensible loading techniques) ~Andrew

[325WSM]

Andrew

If it works half as well as the Outers product I can see why you have continued using it for the past 20 years. I have two different chemicals and both contain Ammonium Acetate plus either Copper or Lead acetate giving the option of either lead or copper removal.

 

Please post your details as I know anyone who tries the process will be extremely glad they did

[Andrew]

I'd be happy to. It's 0130 here now so I'll work on it tomorrow after I get done with my prairiedogging. ~Andrew

[Andrew]

Here is a crude schematic for the electric bore cleaner. As you can see, it’s a simple circuit. The powder source is a “D” cell battery which generates 1.2 volts.

 

The steel rod that goes down the bore is 1/8” in diameter and has a piece of electrical shrink wrap shrunken onto to one end. This is the breech end of the rod. A second section of the shrink wrap is placed over the rod and left to slide up and down the shaft. This will be at the muzzle end and the position on the shaft will be determined by the length of your barrel. These shrink wrap sections provide insulation between the steel rod and the barrel.

 

In use, the chamber end of your rifle is plugged with an appropriately sized cork. The rifle is stood muzzle up. The rod is placed in the bore and the bore filled with plain, household grade (non-sudsing) ammonia. A 10cc syringe works well for this. The clip from the positive lead is attached to the metal of the rifle. Any part will do as long as it will complete the circuit to the barrel. Trigger guards work well. The negative lead is clipped to the end of the rod protruding from the barrel.

 

Flip the switch. The meter should spike for a second or two, and then start drifting downward. If is stays spiked, check to see that the rod isn’t grounded someplace in the barrel. A very straight rod helps to minimize this. After a few-five minutes, the needle on the meter will stop moving downward. At this point remove the rod and wipe it clean. A black residue often forms on the rod. Reinsert and repeat, adding ammonia if needed. Sometimes this wiping needs to be repeated but I’ve usually found that it’s only needed once. If your rifle is very copper fouled ( For example, if it’s never been cleaned of copper fouling) the process can take a half hour to complete. The panel meter is necessary to tell when the circuit it shorted as well as to check on progress. When the meter reads less than 15 milliamps I consider it done.

 

Shut off the unit, remove the rod, and pour out the ammonia solution which should now be a pleasing blue color. The rod should now have a nice copper plating. Remove the cork and push a single H2O dampened patch through the bore, then dry and preserve as you will.

 

A word of caution: Ammonia will take the gloss off of a rifle stock in a heartbeat. Be careful. I have never found it to hard bluing. Another word… I have found NO value in upping the voltage. A single 1.2V powers source was all the designer recommended.

 

Here in the US we have the right to own as many firearms as we choose so the trade in used firearms is brisk. Many old timers have never had a good copper cleaning, ever. When I had my shop the practice was to use a high grade copper solvent ans soak the barrel clean over a period of days. This unit was a godsend. In my collection I have about 60 rifles that I like to shoot cast bullets in, many are high end collector grade items. I never hesitated to run this unit on them.

 

Well, that’s it. I decided to do this before my morning coffee and my prairiedogging so I hope I have been coherent. If you have questions, let me know.

 

Regards ~Andrew