Vermin control in a windy Welsh Valley - which calibre is best?

[Hillfarmer]

I have been using my CZ452 22LR for rabbits and crows the past year, but now want to go for something more powerful and with a longer reach as I shoot in a windy valley, here in the Welsh mountains. I like the idea of a round less likely to richochet than the 22LR.

I first thought of the 17HMR, but have been told its no good when its windy and hereabouts its always windy!

I like the idea of a centrefire as I am now reloading.

I have my 308 for stalking so this new rifle will just be for vermin.

I have been reading up on the new 17 Hornet which looks interesting, 204 Ruger and the larger 222 and 223 but am not sure which one to go for. I see that the 17 Hornet is legal for Charlie and that would be handy to have a second calibre certified for fox and presumably all the other .22 centrefires can handle Charlie as well?.

So is you were buying a new rifle for occasional rabbits, lots of crows and foxes which would you go for and why?

Many thanks, look forward to your replies.

[Guest Stacka]

.222

 

Cheap to buy

Super accurate

Cheap to reload

Light weight

Easy to moderate

 

I have a Tikka M595 for sale £350 with mod and rail with some Leopold rings

[gunnery]

you say you are reloading so in that case I would go 20tac fast shoots flat and very accurate but .223 222 all good for vermin all kill well but I prefer .20tac this round was brought to my attention by Baldie several years ago and he was right as so many on this forum will agree .20tac will take some beating good luck with your search.

[SWShooter]

Ive just gone for a .204 Ruger for the same job as you , plenty of off the peg rifles available , I gone for a CZ527 Varmint , ammo is production not a wildcat so available (usually to order though) .

They are super flat shooting and ideal for fox and corvids etc.

 

PS How do you find time to reload if you are a farmer ?

[gbal]

!7 Hornet might prove marginal.

 

It's OK,but outclassed by the other likely cfs _17rem,222rem,223rem.22/250,and 204ruger,and semi wildcats like 22br,20 tac, and other goodies,but not 'betteries'-depending on just what you need/want.

Costs won't vary greatly-reloading will in general save 1/2 cost-the brass!

As I recall Welsh valleys-all in mist 4 years ago when I last drove through,distances are likeluy to be 200-300 yards,and really more than this is specialist territory....ie under 100% hit rates!

Here are some data-really there isn't often a lot of difference,and much depends on range and wind!

You can measure distance (laser) so it's less critical,but wind is tricky-it changes out there!

OK drop/drift in inches at distances,200 zero,10 mph wind,commercial ammo to be comparable:

 

17Rem 200y 0/5 300y 5/12

222rem 0/5 7/12

223 rem 0/5 7/12

22/250 0/4 4/10

204R 0/3 5/8

 

These are representative data for 'best trajectory' loads-bullet weigh etc can change-heavier bullets less flat.All these are pretty effective home loadable crow/fox loads though.It's unlikely you will need 300Y +,but if you do 22/250,204 maybe and the likes of 22BR start to offer a bit more.

"in the field' 300yards isa longish way-because wind drift starts to limit effectiveness-a slight misreading really means a miss is likely. Beond these,the 6mms start to reduce wind a bit-not a lot!.

 

If we are talking 200-250 yards,the 17,222 and 223 really are enough.Stretch a little,and the 22/250 comes in.

204R is very competent in this group,edges the other 20s(which are essentially 223s necked down,and all 'cusom 'numbers'but you'd have to want to step outside the 250y class to change any of these for something noticeably better,if you ha one.

Price/availability etc vary considerably-everyone did a 222,and a 223,many a 22/250,some the more recent 204. Others are mostly £ custom numbers.223 has the 'advantage' of barrel twist options,allowing considerably more range potential (but only if you can beat the wind!) if that is an issue.

"custom' means £(rebarreled,and reloading with possible increased costs-not much on 20 pract).

 

If you think you'll be shooting a fair bit at 200y,or a bit more,get one of these 20/22cfs,or 17 Rem.

gbal

[Big Al]

What is your budget for a rifle?

 

There are lots of options but as with everything in life price will I guess come into it. If we knew your budget then the advice could be a bit more specific rather than general.

[Alycidon]

17 Hornady Hornet is NOT a good fox round, and if you have wind around those little pills do get pushed about, it is a lovely crow/maggie round at 5am in the morning when things are fairly still.

 

If you want it for pests only the max you will be allowed is a 22. however 20s drop less and drift less given the same bullet weight.

 

222 is a lovely round, 223 is almost as good but both are not that large a case so you will get drift, given consistent winds with a max caliber of 22 then I would go for a 20 caliber. 20 Prac ( or 20Tac) or 204, there is little to choose between them.

 

If going custom then use the BR case, I use a 20BR, my friend a 22BR, there is little to choose between them out to 300 yards.

 

A

[sion]

As above post have said, .20 cals are brilliant for what you require.

I use a .204 for corvid and foxes, brilliant cartridge.

Flat shooting, good in the wind and low recoil so every shot/hit can be seen.

[Hillfarmer]

Thanks to all of you for your ten pence worth and good advice all. So lots to think about. I have the time as I am retired from farming and shoot over my neighbours land as well, both of which are losing new born lambs to ole charlie. I suppose my budget is fairly low for this, say £1k for rifle plus optics. My Atlas bipod fits all my rifles and the LW17 quick lock mount is a boon especially with the Blackhawk QD picatinny mount. I have looked at Tikka T3 but did not like it much. The Howa 1500 fitted me well and I liked the rubberised stock, so perhaps one of these. We only get fog in our valley in the early morning and most of my shooting will be 150-200 yards. I have been watching a fox for a while now and cannot get closer than 300 yards as the terrain is steep and difficult and he is a wily ole boy who knows the land as well as I do. I thought for a while this new 17 Hornet a right little cracker but I was a bit put off by the number of second hand rifles on gunbroker all with only 50 rounds fired, which made me think the owners wanted something else and you would appear to have confirmed that. I have my 22LR and .177 air rifle for bunnies and my FEO is happy for me to go up to 22-250, I am also a long range target shooter, so am only too aware of the wind and how small my target could be beyond 200 yards, so all good points and ones which I will consider.

Thanks again all.

[Paddy_SP]

Another vote for a .204. If you get a Howa, make sure your budget will allow for a replacement stock as the standard ones are far too flexy, ruining any chance of consistent accuracy.

[247sniper]

For vermin and fox out to 350 yards, you will struggle to find a cartridge that will outperform a fast shooting .20 cal with 39/40 grain bullets, such as .20 Tac/Prac and the .204 Ruger.

 

Even with their over inflated bullet BC's, combined with 3700-4000ftps velocities, flight time is short, thus resulting in flat shooting and great in the wind out to 350 ish yards.

 

Rabbit first shot hits are not much of a problem out to 350 yards even in windy ish conditions, this is because, not only due to the amount of practice i put in but the drift at 350 yards in a 10 MPH wind is still within a rabbit size target.

 

 

Hope this helps you out buddy?

 

 

Steve

[Guest Stacka]

I got to try one of this .204 Rugers

[Offroad Gary]

Personally i'd use a 6mm running 55/70gn bullets.

 

You 308 would sort that sneaky one quite nicely, i've take daylight fox at some considerable distances with a 308

[Shuggy]

Genuine question, as I have absolutely no experience of fox control, but it is something that I'd like to get into. With longer range foxes, do you have the time to lase and dial? If so, I would have thought that a more ballistically efficient 6 or 6.5 calibres with heavy poly-tipped bullets would be the way to go. If you only have time to 'point and squirt', or maybe aim off a little, then I can understand the fondness on here for the flat shooting .20 and .22 calibres and light bullets.

[gbal]

Shuggy,one reason is that the 20/222/223 class are enough.and pleasant shooting-and are much more likely to be endorsed by FEOs,though terrain (moorland eg) can be taken into consideration.A lot of fox shooting is at night,which tends to limit ranges -many will be shot under 200y,and shots beyond 250 yards are relatively less likely-again indicating 20/222/223 class (inc 17rem).The 20 is also a fine longer range varminter,as are other cartridges like 22/250,BRs,PPCs). Low recoil helps,moderated-bullet strike is seen,even by lamp/thermal etc.

It's an excellent tool for the job,though the 'flat shooting' advantage is minor within it's envelope,it is there and minimises/removes turret twiddling (not good in the dark!) These cartridges are readily available in wide choice of rifles-though 20s-other than 204R-are custom rebarrels.I agree-if we start to think 400+,6mms come in.....Opinion may vary on any perceived advantage of different bullet weights-most work very well. Generally,there is no need to laser distancing -it's usually sub 200y,and rifles shoot 'flat enough',and there is usually a bit of time,as the fox approaches,often 'called in'-see the many posted videos here.

gbal

[Shuggy]

Thanks Gbal, most interesting.

[Paddy_SP]

As gbal said - most foxing is done at night, and with a 100 yard zero, you can still aim dead-on at 200 yards using a .204. The shots often have to be taken in a split-second situation, so there is rarely any time for faffing about with controls. We took our 126th fox since Jan 1st last night, so we have a lot of experience of what works and what doesn't!

[hunter686]

+1 for the 204. She's a flaccurate caliber

[gbal]

Hillfarmer,while agreeing in large measure with almost all the advice,a budget of £1000 is entirely doable,and 'simplifies' choices considerably.Most custom rifles will take up at least that much second hand without a scope. You need a decent low light/with NV scope-I don't think a hand held Magnalite cuts it these days!

I'd seriously look at a known/tested used Sako,75 or earlier in a 22 cf- just better quality (but you have to like the feel of it,and test fire),for around £600 with moderator;and scope with balance-again reticules etc are subjective-you do not need a complex reticule at all for foxing-though a couple of reference points might be useful for other Varminting.It won't need restocking etc -made right in the factory(varmint barrel prefered,unless you will carry it a lot). You might get a 204 R in this price-definitely a try before you buy.

 

G