FTR and 230 gr what are they like

[Hally]

Hi all

Just after some input on the 215 to 230 gr Projectiles for FTR.

ATM in our 1 in 12 Twist Barrels we run 185 Berger Targets and they work very well out to 1000y. When it blows up rough we screw in our 32 inch 1 in 10 Barrels and use 208 gr Amax and work better than 185s in bad conditions or at least for us.

So just after some thoughts on the Bigger pills and is it worth the trouble and can the 308 drive them fast enough to get the best out of them.

Thanks

[Laurie]

They can be driven fast enough, but only with the combination of Lapua Palma small primer brass, high-energy powders, and a VERY long freebore throat. Many have tried 230s, few have stuck with them.

 

There is some evidence from US FTR shooters that 1 in 10" isn't fast enough - they need 1 in 9.5" minimum in 308 to give their best and Berger's ballistics website facility supports that giving an Sg of 1.31 in a 10-inch twist at 2,650 fps in standard ballistic conditions.

 

http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

 

The calculator says that reduces the effective BC by 6%.

 

9.5 at 2,650 is just short of the now recommended 1.5 Sg value, but raising the ambient temperature to 80-deg F increases that to the optimum 1.5 level.

 

The 230 in particular looks to be a better bullet for the .300 SAUM and WSM in F-Open, and even there most users have found better results by keeping MVs (and hence recoil / torque) down below those that these cartridges can attain safely in a 30-32" barrel, that is run them below 3,000 fps, often well below.

 

The issue even in 'Open' with its heavy stable front-rests and 22lb rifles isn't usually getting the right external ballistics and high precision, rather about gun handling consistency and shooter stamina. Top Southern US competitor Steve Blair tried hard with the 230 in FTR and eventually decided that the cons outweigh the pros. When he switched to F-Open, he eventually got them to work in .300WSM, but only after working very hard on his rest and bags set-up, body position and shooting style, and even then says it's tiring and very hard work to shoot consistently throughout a long string.

[Hally]

Thanks Laurie

I did wonder about the Torque and felt Recoil. I thought that a 1in 10 might do the trick but looks more likely a 1in 9.5. I was wondering about the 220 or 215 as well as this might help with the issues that the Bigger pills have.

My 14 yo son shoots FTR only and I swap between FTR and Fopen so he is the one that will shoot the heavier Projectiles more than myself. He finds that the 208 Amax are a better option to shoot on longer strings than the 185 as the recoil isn't as sharp not that it's an issue but its interesting.

Thanks

[Blue Haze]

Just out of interest, your son finds the recoil of the 208 to be LESS 'sharp' than the 185? What velocities are you running each at?

[Eagernoskill]

There are other considerations.

 

Shooter fatigue

Shooting a high amount of heavies creates more rapid shooter fatigue. Starting shooting 60 plus rounds over multi days and you will note it on your shoulder.
There is about a 29% increase in felt recoil as a rough rule of thumb. Basic fact of life .. some people handle recoil better than others!

 

Body position

A "heavy" is much less tolerant of poor body position and will magnify any errors or inconsistencies.

This is a function of increase felt recoil and longer barrel dwell time given more time to have effect.

 

Elevations and reloading techniques

The more pronounced trajectory of the heavy bullets will result in a larger vertical dispersion pattern when you maintain the same standard of reloading precision.
So, A given 155 at 3000 will produce a certain elevation spread assuming a given velocity SD say 15 fps. The same velocity SD with the "heavies" will produce a ever increasing vertical dispersion.

 

Points lost Elevation versus Wind drift

Though the heavies on paper have better BC that assumes a given equivalence in speed. We have noted that heavies more more pronounced elevation swing in frontal / tail winds.

Consider what you gain and what you lose.

 

Techie stuff

You need much more MOA on the rail and scope to get it out at longer distances - so it NOT just about barrel twist. Other components may need boosting.

[Hally]

Just out of interest, your son finds the recoil of the 208 to be LESS 'sharp' than the 185? What velocities are you running each at?

Hi Blue Haze

With the 208 Amax the recoil is a lot less sharper than the 185s. It may be down to the loading or it also may have something to do with the way our Armorer set the barrel up but they shoot well.

The 185 Bergers are around 2800 FPS and the 210 Amax 2650 FPS.

Now we can get them going a bit faster if we needed to but they work well out to 1000y.

The 210 Amax shoot well l think better than the Berger 210 at the longs which I found surprising. My 14 yo son come first in FTR in our State Queens open age a Couple of weeks ago using the Amax at the longs and the 185 at the shorts so we are happy with them.

[Hally]

 

Hi Eagernoskill

Thanks for that there is a lot of interesting info. If the conditions aren't to bad then we would use the 185 Bergers and the Amax only if it gets rough. Interesting info on Vertical spread .

 

 

And thanks Laurie for the info that you supplied the 230g probably are a step to fare. But the 225g or 220g interest me and might be a little bit more common.

[Eagernoskill]

Hi Blue Haze

With the 208 Amax the recoil is a lot less sharper than the 185s. It may be down to the loading or it also may have something to do with the way our Armorer set the barrel up but they shoot well.

The 185 Bergers are around 2800 FPS and the 210 Amax 2650 FPS.

Now we can get them going a bit faster if we needed to but they work well out to 1000y.

The 210 Amax shoot well l think better than the Berger 210 at the longs which I found surprising. My 14 yo son come first in FTR in our State Queens open age a Couple of weeks ago using the Amax at the longs and the 185 at the shorts so we are happy with them.

 

Hally

 

Lighter bullets have more whip less push - heavies have more push less whip

You see this in pistols too e.g. a 9mm 115 versus a 147 gn

 

It is the function of recoil pulse energy and how it is perceived ...

 

The quicker the bullet leaves the barrel - the "quicker" your felt perception

[Hally]

Hally

 

Lighter bullets have more whip less push - heavies have more push less whip

You see this in pistols too e.g. a 9mm 115 versus a 147 gn

 

It is the function of recoil pulse energy and how it is perceived ...

 

The quicker the bullet leaves the barrel - the "quicker" your felt perception

Thanks that would explain the felt recoil in the 185 to the 208 Amax.

[Laurie]

And thanks Laurie for the info that you supplied the 230g probably are a step to fare. But the 225g or 220g interest me and might be a little bit more common.

 

I'm assuming that's the recently introduced 220gn Lapua Scenar L and 225gn Hornady HPBT Match?

 

The former has the same G7 BC as Berger's two 210s give or take 0.004, so close as to be within the test error parameters. As it'll be driven more slowly than a 210 all other things equal, it'll produce poorer external ballistics allied to heavier recoil and torque. All other things don't appear equal however. When I examined a sample box of 220s last year, I was left puzzled as to which market / shooting purpose Lapua had designed the bullets for. It has a massively long central shank in relation to Berger and Hornady equivalents, so it will generate considerably more in-barrel friction than its competitors leading to lower charges / MVs before pressure limits are reached.

 

Its new 175gn 'L' stablemate is also relatively uninspiring in terms of BC and when I tried it found that it was marginally larger diameter than its competitors so that it peaked earlier pressure wise too. This seems a feature of many of the L designs, I've found it in the 150/180gn 7mm models - a boon if you have a slightly 'generously dimensioned' barrel, a downside otherwise. I suspect that it also applies to the .308 220.

 

I can't comment on the Hornady 225 except that the company seems to have done a good design job on all of its new model HPBT Match models. Sadly, the great US bullet shortage / hoarding event struck not long after the new range was announced and most new HPBT models were promptly 'temporarily suspended' so that Hornady could concentrate on turning out its existing big selllers such as the ballistically inferior A-Max models. Whether for this reason or others, it seems a nearly unknown model and gets no mention on American shooting forums such as Accurate Shooter. Given huge interest there and elsewhere for other recent match bulet introductions such as the new plastic tipped Sierra TMKs, that seems strange. Since most American FTR shooters have decided that the 215gn Berger Hybrid is the sensible weight ceiling for consistent performance from the shooter + FTR set-up combination, (and many have decided that's heavier than they like), it may well be that a Johnny come lately 225gn .30 bullet simply won't get serious consideration irrespective of its make and any merits. Even so, I would have expected at least some comment from .300 short magnum users.