New to reloading - some advice required

[Mick Miller]

Hi all, as this is my first post please allow me a short introduction. I have been shooting for many years, always with air rifles. However, 8 years ago I got my shotgun licence and five years ago my rifle licence. I mainly shoot the obligatory pigeons (shotgun), a couple of driven/ beater's days a year, then foxing, rabbiting, stalking with the various rifles.

 

If your time is limited, and you don't want to read through all of this you can simply scroll to the bottom and see my list of questions, thank you for your time and input.

 

More recently I joined a rifle club as I wished to start developing my own home loaded ammunition having always experienced slightly disappointing results with factory ammo. The idea was to have somewhere I could safely test my loads at various ranges and check the predicted drops over distance with real world results. Also, I can ask questions to remain on the safe side of loading. As a result I'm finding myself drawn toward target shooting, something I always considered a bit 'nerdy', maybe I've found my inner nerd!

 

As most new to reloading will be aware, the start up is a minefield of conflicting advice and materials. Throw away comments such as 'check for signs of pressure' without any real guidance at to what they are. Also, conflicting advice when it comes to developing loads such as; start low and work up, don't go beneath stated minimum loads, go 10% under minimum and work up, don't go over maximum loads, cross reference loads from at least two sources of data (but no advice of what to do when those sources contradict each other!)

 

I asked some of these questions and my findings elsewhere and got picked apart and accused of being unsafe and cavalier, so I'm hoping that the replies here will be more balanced, helpful, appreciative of my lack of knowledge and accept that above all, I'm trying to be safe.

 

I shoot 243win (amongst others but this is the rifle I'm developing loads for). It's a Browning X-Bolt with a hunting type barrel, not a heavyweight varmint or target barrel, as such I have discovered it prefers a load at the low to middle part of any recommended data.

 

I started with using Vihtavouri data and Viht N150. I chose this because Vihtavouri's own data showed that it could suit bullets from 70gn all the way up to 100gn (see here: http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/-243-winchester.html ). As I wanted to eventually develop various loads, specifically for a 100gn Sierra soft point for stalking and a 70gn Nosler ballistic tip load for foxing, I thought it was a good choice.

 

I sought advice from a knowledgeable source and was advised to start at 10% under start load and work up. As it happens this was very, very good advice. It did rather contradict the advice elsewhere to NEVER GO UNDER RECOMMENDED MINIMUM as this is dangerous and likely I will kill myself, or worse still, those around me.

 

Viht's data stated a starting load of 41.2gns. and a maximum load of 45.5gns. Using the advice to start 10% lower I loaded several rounds in half grain steps. So:

 

37 • 37.5 • 38 • 38.5 • 39 • 39.5 • 40 • 40.5 • 41 • 41.5 • 42 • 42.5 • 43 • 43.5 • 44 • 44.5 • 45 • 45.5

 

Headed off to the range...

 

My findings where that the best group by far were at 39.5gns - by the way, this was the best group I had ever gotten from this rifle, literally 5p groups of four shots over 100 yards. The best factory ammo had provided to date were 2.5" groups.

 

But this is under the Viht data for a starting load. Although it still represents 73.4% of case capacity. Note that at 42gns I started to get the signs of over pressure. The bolt was getting hard to lift and small shiny marks appeared on the case base from the ejector pin. Being new (and slightly naive) to reloading I soldiered on to the 43.5gn mark and there I stopped. The bolt was very heavy to lift, marks more pronounced. I figured this was getting unsafe and anyway, the groups were terrible!

 

So here I have a load that is accurate, but beneath manufacturer starting load data. I also have tried a load just half a grain higher than recommended start load that evidently was over pressure IN MY RIFLE.

 

I went away and did some more thinking and decided that I would change powders, one that gave a higher fill ratio, but would still permit me to use the same powder for the Sierra 100gn bullets. Why did I do this if I had an accurate load in N150 you may ask? Well, it didn't look like the Nosler ballistic tips were expanding as well as they could. According to the Nosler page, maximum expansion would occur at 3000fps and higher. I was provided data that suggested with my VIHT load, barrel and bullet I could expect sub 2900fps.

 

***At this point I must admit to not owning a chrono. But, I have since borrowed one and will be testing the original load to establish what the real world data is. And yes, I'm now aware that reloading without a chrono is rather like trying to ski without any poles, you have nothing to support you and your findings ***

 

I decided to use Nosler's load data for the 70gn ballistic tip bullets in 243 (see here: http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/243-winchester/ ) in combination with IMR 4350. This states a starting load of 43gns and a max load of 47gns. I didn't cross check this anyplace else. I also didn't go 10% under the starting load as I had been told, several times, don't go under the minimum load.

 

I chose IMR 4350 as I had data across the board from Nosler from 70gn to 105gn. I also had load data from Sierra for the 100g soft points that gave a nice spread of powder charges to try, which would give different speeds. I worked out that to get a deer legal round for .243win I need a 100g bullet to at least hit 2800fps to have the required 1700 ft/lb of muzzle energy (see here: http://basc.org.uk/cop/deer-stalking/ ).

 

So one powder covers a variety of loads, although IMR's own data only starts at 85gn bullets. I'm not sure if that is because it's unacceptable in 70gn or more likely as for them to list every powder in every bullet combination would take years to complete.

 

I loaded the 70 grainers up with the following charges:

 

43 • 43.5 • 44 • 44.5 • 45 • 45.5 • 46 • 46.5 • 47

 

And headed off once more to the range...

 

My finding were that between 43gns and 44gns produced the best groups with easy bolt lift, no marks on the case head. Everything over that opened up more and more. I did fire two rounds at 47gns. The grouping was awful, the bolt heavy to lift and everything from 45gn up started to leave tiny, but visible shiny marks on the case head from the ejector pin.

 

So, I noted everything down and came home. Then I got the advice that data should be cross checked before loading and that data published only suits THAT RIFLE on THAT DAY with THAT COMBINATION etc. Which kind of contradicts the other advice to only use published data, not go under minimum or maximum loads, use manufacturer data etc. etc. (One wonders which is correct and which isn't?)

 

So, I looked at the nearest data I could find for IMR 4350 and 70gn bullets. My Hornady book had nothing, so I used the Sierra Blitzking data (see here: http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra243win.pdf ). A slightly deeper seating depth than I was using (I used Nosler's 2.680", Sierra Blitzking's suggest seating at 2.670"). Now, that suggested a starting load of 41.6gns with IMR 4350 and a max load of 44.6gn!!

 

Bear in mind in started at 43gn and went up to 47gn. That's quite a bit over the Sierra max of 44.6! And, not surprisingly, I started to notice those little marks on the case head at 45gns.

 

So, my apologies for a long a detailed first post, but I want to provide all the data I've used so far, why I did what I did and ask some questions which I hope will get cleared up to some degree.

 

Firstly, I've now learned to cross check load data from more than one source. That was good advice. I've also learned that if I ever see those little shiny marks on the case head after extraction TO STOP THERE and go no further. Finally, I've learned that I need to use a chrono with every load, but I'm not sure what, other than the fps, that will tell me.

 

And so, my questions are:

 

1). If two data sources are cross checked, do you start at the lowest charge provided by the data despite that being beneath the other source recommending that that is the safe starting point?

 

2). Should you start under the lowest charge weight you can find, say by 10% (remember that in the case of the Viht data I used this proved to be a safe course of action).

 

3). If you are testing the loads and getting worsening groups, shoot you try and shoot through to see if they tighten up again, provided that there are no signs of problems or having shot an over pressure load?

 

4). Or should you simply stop as soon as you get a tight group and go back and work loads at .3gn intervals either side of that?

 

5). Are half grain intervals acceptable when first working up a load?

 

6). What, other than fps, does a chrono tell me. Should I look to see if my load at a given grain weight closely matches the manufacturer data. And if it is higher or lower what does that tell me?

 

7). Given that I have data for IMR 4350 and a 70gn bullet from two sources, and one of those sources states a starting load of 41.6gn. And given that my best load for this bullet was at 43gns. Is it worth me now loading some test rounds at lower than 43gns. So maybe the next batch to test should be: 42.4 • 42.7 • 43 • 43.3 • 43.6 • 43.9

 

Well done on getting though all of that. Please can the answers be provided with the corresponding number in front. So if you can answer question 5 please put 5) in front of the answer to save me any more confusion!!

 

Of course, if I'm waaaay off track here and being dangerous, please let me know.

[gbal]

Hi Mick: we've all been there.Clearly you have learned though-eg what some of the signs of pressure are-each time you hear something that is new,look it up. Use makers published data for loads.The min/max are there for good reasons-that does not mean .1 outside will cause a major disaster,nor does "this rifle,that day ' just be careful.Rifles differ in what they tolerate.Be especially careful (don't use) loads from specialist sources (experienced competition shooters with especially strong custom actions,eg) in your factory rifle (which will limit bullet weight,because of twist rate too-you might find 95g are the limit).Some sources will be alleged to be 'conservative'ie lowish powder weights....well,ask yourself if eg Vihtavuori are likely to know what their powders do,or has some club amateur been lucky so far.

Given you current rifle,factory Browning 243,you won't be competitive at long ange (600+) so absolute fps is less important anyhow-go for accuracy.(believe now,it's wind errors that are the biggest hassle in shooting,not a few fps).My answers,all considered:

1) keep to manufacturers' min and max powder weights.Often the best ie accuracy/performance balance is about .5 g below max,but rilfes vary.

2)No,but use appropriate published data-eg Vihtavouti-NOT some specialist 'HOT' source like "accurate shooter-read everything you can on this grat site,but remember it's geared towards top gear/performance,so don't try to emulate everything.

3)Yes,but within the published min-max range

4)Ok,you can do.For LR,even 500 yards ,you will come to want as high a velocity as is safe,without compromising accuracy in your rifle.

5) a little course...try .3g

6) fps,yes.But yu will also get 'spread'-the difference between highest and lowest fps.You want consistency,ie as low a spread as possible (really good reloaders can get single figures,but don't expect that.)Chrono is very useful,not essential at first.Holes on paper are definitive-what the rig is doing,not what ballistics says it should-be aware how complex are the factors in a bullets flight.fps is one of the main ones,though-along with bullet BC (for targets),and terminal performance(for animals).

7) OK,as ever,don't go above max.

 

Keep asking.Remember you are not an expert,and are not shooting at top level with super custom kit(yet),so consider advice against that reality.243 is an excellent cartridge - enough to bring the issues of LR into serious focus (a fast twist 243,with 115g bullets is a viable 1000y number).But you will learn about wind drift-everything drifts-and that is THE issue for successful LR shooting,and it just has to be learned.

It's also 'shootable'-recoil isn't a macho thing,it's just a negative to good shooting.Get a moderator,if you don't already have a stalking one.

Don't expect one line answers to what are often complex questions,and if you get them,ask a few more sources.There are always plus and minus considerations,and no free lunches.A great shooter,Warren Page once said that its differences of opinion that led to horse races,but we can do better than that in shooting,as there is a lot of good data-though things also improve (one reason reloading data gets updated sometimes,but get the current ones for current powder!).Enjoy.

 

gbal

[Will0]

I'm very much a novice to reloading, compared to the elite of this forum, but I've been at it 3 years and worked up several loads successfully.

Just started target shooting and I'm astounded by how many experts that know everything about it, what they don't know isn't worth knowing, tell me my powder choice (from a manual) is only for magnum cartidges etc

I'd much rather search this forum for advice

 

3- I've normally found a couple of accuracy nodes, if velocity isn't imporrtant I'll choose the node which has similar point of impact to the surrounding groups. For varminting (flat shooting) I prefer a bit of extra velocity, as would deer legality

5 - My starters method is to work through the powder charges in 0.5grain intervals at 100, then develope the best groups at 200 with .2 intervals. More trigger time, practice, and ultimately, enjoying the process!

 

It seems a good idea to me to work your way up until you find pressure signs, you seem to understand what to look for, primer cratering, heavy bolt lift, ejector marks; record the temperature and the charge weight for reference, from then on, keep below this charge.

 

I've chrono'd my loads in my new 260, to find I have single digit ES, I'm either lucky or need a new chrony! Better case fill seems to yield more consistent velocity.

 

Note everything, if one day in the summer you get pressure signs, look in your notes and you can refer back to a lower charge weight that is still accurate.

 

Hope this helps

[Mick Miller]

Thanks for your replies thus far gentlemen. If anyone else has any input it would be greatly appreciated.

[LukeSoutherner]

Hi Mick,

 

I am no expert either on reloading (2 years), but I'll pass on my findings in reference to two of your questions.

 

 

3). If you are testing the loads and getting worsening groups, shoot you try and shoot through to see if they tighten up again, provided that there are no signs of problems or having shot an over pressure load?

 

Once I have made up my test loads, I tend to shoot through all of them, unless there are pressure signs, out of curiosity to see if there is another accuracy node. I have heard from an experienced source on this forum that barrels often have two accuracy nodes. However, my own findings have not found this. I also just like shooting and it's a good excuse to carry on . As an aside, I also carry out my load test twice on two days to double check my findings, and to try and take more shooter error out of the test.

 

5). Are half grain intervals acceptable when first working up a load?

 

Others might disagree, but I like to start with a coarse jump between loads at 0.5gr just to get a rough idea of where the accuracy node is, before coming back another day with more refined intervals either side the accuracy node.

 

As an aside to your questions, I have found on two rifles (which I have worked loads up for), the optimum load for the rifle is in the low to middle range. My AI AE in .308 seems to be most accurate with 41gr of N135 pushing a 150gr SST, where the maximum load is actually 43.7gr. Each rifle is unique, so listen to the rifle, not what everyone else in the club says is best for that rifle!

[Mick Miller]

Thank you Luke, and thanks everyone for answering the questions directly.

[srvet]

Might be worth looking up Dan Newberrys OCW method of working up a load. Works for me

[Mick Miller]

Is that this: http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com