Tiff Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 A local chap I know wants to do a bit deer stalking, so has applied for his firearms certificate. He's booked some roe stalking with me and has used this staking booking in support of his application, as his 'land permission'. Something that's occurred several times before and there has never been an issue. However his local FEO/FLO has contacted the gentleman and informed him this booking letter is not sufficient and he must have written permission from a landowner... The latest guide to firearms licensing law states: "13.10 The land need not be owned or rented by the applicant, nor need they have regular or automatic access to it. Farmers and landowners may allow shooters to shoot on their land, for payment or otherwise, on a formal or informal basis. An applicant need not always nominate a piece of land as evidence of “good reason”, but in such cases the applicant may be required, where possible, to provide written evidence, for example from a relevant organisation, a professional pest controller, gamekeeper or of a booking to shoot." I'm a gamekeeper and the sporting rights holder...So have the goalposts moved very recently or is the local enquires officer simply a tad confused? As ever, your thoughts greatly appreciated, Tiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalua Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I wonder whether it would be reasonable for the applicant to write politely back to the FEO quoting the HO Guide and asking whether they might wish to reconsider their position, as he's not able to produce a letter from any specific landowner and it is clear from the Guide that such a letter is not necessary if evidence of a booked stalk is on hand. The FEO might be misinformed or simply being (perhaps understandably) cautious: in either case, the providing the quotation from the Guide and/or addressing his concerns re. the applicant's bona fides in as non-confrontational way as possible might well resolve the situtation. You might additionally like to suggest that he invites them to contact you directly to discuss the exact arrangement in order to put their mind at rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akeld Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I've heard of this happening when I lived in Yorkshire, the FEO thought there were too many people using the same piece of nominated land. Might be worth a letter to confirm things from yourself and him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Thanks for the replies so far and apologies I should have made it clearer earlier: The client has already given the FEO a signed and dated letter I supplied; stating he has booked roe buck stalking in the spring and that I am the gamekeeper and sporting agent (including primary/sole rights holder) on x,y & z estates. The FEO response was this is not suitable and one of the landowners must provide a permission letter... The client is perhaps understandably not wanting to rock the boat on his application and asked me earlier if the landowner could do this as an 'easy way out' - somewhat ironically this isn't possible as I hold the sporting rights and the landowner isn't legally able to sign such a letter without a breach of contract! I'll check with the client in the morning and then speak to the FEO direct...Unless anyone does know of a rule change recently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akeld Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 this isn't possible as I hold the sporting rights and the landowner isn't legally able to sign such a letter without a breach of contract! Theres your answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Tiff,13.10 is current guidance. I would think that a phone to phone -you and FE)-will clear this up. FEO might want (written) confirmation of your status as sporting rights holder if not already provided? gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Tiff,13.10 is current guidance. I would think that a phone to phone -you and FE)-will clear this up. FEO might want (written) confirmation of your status as sporting rights holder if not already provided? gbal Thanks everyone, just checking I haven't missed something fundamental, since so far I've not made any progress I spoke to the FEO earlier this morning, he's a pleasant fellow but unfortunately didn't appear to comprehend the distinction between a signed sporting rights contract that I pay fair money for and a 'simple' permission to shoot... He categorically stated that since I'm not the land owner, I'm unable to provide permission for someone else to shoot. Suggesting instead I get the landowner to write the client a permission letter! I don't want to, but I'll have to go over the FEO's head to HQ, to clarify the situation later today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Tiff can you not clarify the phone conversation on email politely informing/reminding him that as you stated the landowner is not in a position legally to allow permission and it is YOU who is. YOU are the owner from a sporting right stance. Naturally you (may/will) need to CC'd others into the email so as to enable progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hopefully all sorted now, after a quick phone call to the main office . I was going to email , but didn't have the FEO's address and to be honest needed to get it sorted today while I'm available. I find it surprising the FEO hadn't come across this situation before of an applicant listing paid shooting, but then again, it is still fairly rural down here and shooting permission is not that difficult to come by if you have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 My thoughts are that this chap doesn't need a rifle. He might do when he's been involved in deer management for a while..... You did ask! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 My thoughts are that this chap doesn't need a rifle. He might do when he's been involved in deer management for a while..... You did ask! When has it become a requirement to be involved in deer management, to qualify to go deer stalking in this country? There are plenty of people I know who hold an FAC and go stalking simply because they enjoy the hunt and all the aspects of being in the countryside this involves. It is a hobby to them, an escape from the realities of work for a few hours and if they are successful, they can enjoy a good venison steak on the bbq with some fond memories of the day and perhaps glance at the rug on the floor or trophy on the wall with a smile. The same goes for many of the people that shoot overseas. The law and guidance is written with this in mind, so I find it surprising a fellow shooter could hold such a narrow mindset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Perhaps deer management was a poor choice of words. My point being, for someone to "do a bit deer stalking" (your words), who has no ground of their own, and only does booked, accompanied days; my belief is that they should take advantage of the estate rifle ruling until they have decided that the "sport" (is that better??) is for them. The reason that the administrators of the laws are cracking down on genuine users of firearms is that there are too many people who get them without a proper reason. My thoughts. Take him stalking, let him kill his buck, but why assist him in owning a rifle he doesn't need (yet)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 The reason that the administrators of the laws are cracking down on genuine users of firearms is that there are too many people who get them without a proper reason. My thoughts. I never said that hasn't already occurred Now he's got a taste for it, her wants a rifle of his own, instead of borrowing whatever I have to hand to offer as the estate rifle - which is often a rather eclectic mix! The section of your post I've quoted, highlights why I started this thread. To me there seems to be an undertone of 'unless you actively use your firearms and preferably use them for work (gamekeeper, forestry commission, paid estate stalker/ghille etc.), then you don't have good reason to own them. The law/guidance doesn't currently require this, but I fear with the way things are heading it won't be long before it does and we're left with a situation similar to Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offroad Gary Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I dont think "work" is the only valid reason and certainly none of the firearms departments have ever suggested that to me, i don't receive a wage for any of my shooting (perhaps a little benefit in kind!). I see lots of firearms owners, with rifles that get used hardly ever, and always accompanied. I think these folks don't really need to own their own(even though it is nice to) . Some of them even turn up with unzeroed rifles to cull deer. Anyway, nothing to fall out over, all the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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