Jamie Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Hi folks, I've just prepped and primed some WW .204R brass, and CCI 400 primers. I used the Lee Auto-Prime XR hand primer to do this. I noticed that around 3-4 primers were seated a lot easier than the rest. As in, I could prime a case using one hand easily, using just my thumb on the lever. In the interest of consistency, should I bin them anyway?? Some constructive advice would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 No. When you don't feel ANY resistance or hardly any and have to check that a primer was actually inserted is when they're really finished. When the newly seated primer promptly falls out of the case .... that tells you that you should have scrapped those cases a couple of cycles earlier. When I say 'finished', I mean scrap bin. They're 'finished' for precision / match work earlier and should be relegated to practice or load development etc. Mark the box label otherwise you'll almost certainly forget by the time you next load those cases. (I remember a partner in a match looking at a pencilled note on a box of my 308 that said 'Scrap after next firing' and a bit white-faced asking if he should move down the line a bit or change places to my left?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 ...and then there is the customer of mine who said the primers were falling out of his 30-06 cases so he used finger-nail polish to glue them into place.~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Cheers Laurie, much appreciated. I'm not totally sure where that leaves me! If I had, for instance, 2 lots of x4 rounds that were identical in every way, BUT, the one batch of 4 had primer pockets as loose as I've stated. Would the 2 batches of 4 give different results on the paper? All things being equal obviously... Cheers Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 ...and then there is the customer of mine who said the primers were falling out of his 30-06 cases so he used finger-nail polish to glue them into place.~Andrew Now that is funny! Did he still get good results? Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Probably a fingernail sized group methinks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Probably a fingernail sized group methinks! Well if that's at 100 yards, you can't argue with that! Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 I'm not totally sure where that leaves me! If I had, for instance, 2 lots of x4 rounds that were identical in every way, BUT, the one batch of 4 had primer pockets as loose as I've stated. Would the 2 batches of 4 give different results on the paper? All things being equal obviously... No matter how carefully we handload, smallarms cartridges produce a surprisingly large range of pressures. So, if you load and fire a batch of brass say three or four times, most will have had a mix of 'low' and 'high' pressure events. A few will have had every firing low-pressure, and another few every, or nearly every one, was top of the range pressure. I suspect the .204 is a particularly variable design in this respect as I rarely if ever saw small velocity spreads when I did load development for it. Then we assume that every component is identical, but in reality there will be a small range of case-head hardness values across a box so some will see case-heads expand marginally more than others. A tray of primers may contain marginal brass cup dimensional or hardness variations too so one seats with less pressure than others. Remember too that little tool though it is, the Lee Auto-Prime still has a lot of leverage when you're dealing with a little thin (0.020" thickness standard SR and 0.025" magnum / BR primers) metal cup, so what seems like very little effort needed is still exerting a fair bit of force to push the primer into its pocket. The real test is whether a standard pressure load produces any leakage around the primer or other untoward event on firing. Over the years, I've found that this rarely if ever occurs as long as you feel some resistance on the tool operating handle. What easier seating does tell you is that the case-head as a whole has expanded. Only experience says when to dump it. My rule over the years has been to scrap the whole box (I keep them together and keep a record on the label of firings) once I feel that a significant number of the cases seem to be getting looser than I like. I only have one exception, that's when the brass was used for load development and a few cases saw over-cooked pressure loads. At the end of the day, new brass is cheaper than new eyes or rifles. If this happens to a significant number of cases quickly, like two to three firings, it's a sign that loads are close to the limit for that make of brass. (This is when you find that the cheapest cases are sometimes a false economy over the whole life cost!) While I wouldn't recommend Andrew's customer's remedy, changing primer make / model can sometimes produce a tighter fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 No matter how carefully we handload, smallarms cartridges produce a surprisingly large range of pressures. So, if you load and fire a batch of brass say three or four times, most will have had a mix of 'low' and 'high' pressure events. A few will have had every firing low-pressure, and another few every, or nearly every one, was top of the range pressure. I suspect the .204 is a particularly variable design in this respect as I rarely if ever saw small velocity spreads when I did load development for it. Then we assume that every component is identical, but in reality there will be a small range of case-head hardness values across a box so some will see case-heads expand marginally more than others. A tray of primers may contain marginal brass cup dimensional or hardness variations too so one seats with less pressure than others. Remember too that little tool though it is, the Lee Auto-Prime still has a lot of leverage when you're dealing with a little thin (0.020" thickness standard SR and 0.025" magnum / BR primers) metal cup, so what seems like very little effort needed is still exerting a fair bit of force to push the primer into its pocket. The real test is whether a standard pressure load produces any leakage around the primer or other untoward event on firing. Over the years, I've found that this rarely if ever occurs as long as you feel some resistance on the tool operating handle. What easier seating does tell you is that the case-head as a whole has expanded. Only experience says when to dump it. My rule over the years has been to scrap the whole box (I keep them together and keep a record on the label of firings) once I feel that a significant number of the cases seem to be getting looser than I like. I only have one exception, that's when the brass was used for load development and a few cases saw over-cooked pressure loads. At the end of the day, new brass is cheaper than new eyes or rifles. If this happens to a significant number of cases quickly, like two to three firings, it's a sign that loads are close to the limit for that make of brass. (This is when you find that the cheapest cases are sometimes a false economy over the whole life cost!) While I wouldn't recommend Andrew's customer's remedy, changing primer make / model can sometimes produce a tighter fit. Apologies if my remark came across as sarcastic Laurie, it was not meant to.... I understand what you mean now. And thank-you. Once these rounds are fired, I think it's probably time to put them in the "load development" tray... Could I ask, if I used the old cases for load development, and found a nice (non hot) load, would the load alter much when I then transferred all the components to new brass? My low experience would tell me, I may have to "tweak" it a little due to the altered case capacity. Would that be right? Cheers Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Apologies if my remark came across as sarcastic Laurie, it was not meant to.... No - I didn't take it that way at all. Any load developed in your old brass shouldn't change when transferred to a new lot assuming it uses the same make of case. In theory, old 'tired' brass shouldn't group as tight as nice new stuff, but it doesn't usually have much effect in short-range testing. (I've shot some staggering groups at 100 using cases I'd never load match ammo in over the years.) What you may find is that the new stuff will produce smaller velocity spreads. If you use your knackered old stuff at long ranges, that can be a different matter. The further away the target whether paper or live, the better and more consistent the ammo should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
247sniper Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Cheers Laurie, much appreciated. I'm not totally sure where that leaves me! If I had, for instance, 2 lots of x4 rounds that were identical in every way, BUT, the one batch of 4 had primer pockets as loose as I've stated. Would the 2 batches of 4 give different results on the paper? All things being equal obviously... Cheers Jamie Jamie, Carry on as you are Matey Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 No - I didn't take it that way at all. Any load developed in your old brass shouldn't change when transferred to a new lot assuming it uses the same make of case. In theory, old 'tired' brass shouldn't group as tight as nice new stuff, but it doesn't usually have much effect in short-range testing. (I've shot some staggering groups at 100 using cases I'd never load match ammo in over the years.) What you may find is that the new stuff will produce smaller velocity spreads. If you use your knackered old stuff at long ranges, that can be a different matter. The further away the target whether paper or live, the better and more consistent the ammo should be. Cheers Laurie, much appreciated. Jamie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted July 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 No - I didn't take it that way at all. Any load developed in your old brass shouldn't change when transferred to a new lot assuming it uses the same make of case. In theory, old 'tired' brass shouldn't group as tight as nice new stuff, but it doesn't usually have much effect in short-range testing. (I've shot some staggering groups at 100 using cases I'd never load match ammo in over the years.) What you may find is that the new stuff will produce smaller velocity spreads. If you use your knackered old stuff at long ranges, that can be a different matter. The further away the target whether paper or live, the better and more consistent the ammo should be. Cheers Laurie, much appreciated. Jamie. Jamie, Carry on as you are Matey Steve Thanks for the imput Steve. Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henryo Posted July 14, 2014 Report Share Posted July 14, 2014 Too hot during load development Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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