Whats the purpose of a 17HM2?

[Jamie]

Hi folks,

This isn't a dig at anyone who has one or about the round itself.

I'm genuinely puzzled as to it's benefits.

You have the worldwide known and excellent .22lr, then the .22WMR for, shall we say more distance.

Then the .17HMR caused a stir and is now also well known and widely used. And as good, if not better than the .22WMR...

So where does the 17HM2 sit, in it's ability and purpose. I initially thought it may be a subsonic .17, but apparently not. Just target shooting?

So what does it do that the other 3 rimfires can't???

Jamie

[243ack]

Just part of lifes wide choices!.

Personally, through experience, I love the little round. I don't shoot to silly ranges, so what I shoot at, I want to hit. The HM2 does all that the HMR does at the distances involved. I use both, but have been looking for a left hand HM2 for years (not Sako quad).

Anyone got one for sale?.

[Akeld]

Personally I think if we had 17M2 before the 17HMR it would be the more popular round. HMR was well established here before we got M2

[gbal]

Jamie ,it replaces the discontinued 17 Aguila! :-)

243 Ack,yes and why not? :-)

There are/have been of course quite a few other 22rfs (22 long eg,which has a very limited niche these days-other than in rifles so designed.the 22 short has a more legitimate niche,as well as competition pistol use).Sometimes cartridgers just don't catch on,at first,or maybe ever..5mm Rem Mag eg.

284win was no great sales shakes,has had modest resurgence as a target

244 Rem is everybit as good/better than the 243,but nowhere near as popular.

And there are plenty other examples,and ballistic overlaps/duplications.

 

The sales for 17 HM2 are one answer-nowhere near 17HMR (whatever it's variable ammo history shows),and it's not very obvious that we really need it,but that could apply to many others too-the current fine crop of 6.5s don't really do a lot that the pld 6.5x55 Swede could not do,or for that matter the numerous other near clone 6.5 military cartridges,back 100+years.

Books could/have been written.

We would survive almost untouched if eg the 17Mach2 went the way of the 5mm rem(-in itself,rather a good little cartridge,but do you feel deprived by it's near obsolete status? probably not!).

 

But that is not the point...some like the 17Mach 2,(though hardly a target winner),and that leaves the market to decide.

Gbal

[Copperjacket]

Is ammo availability an issue?

[Jamie]

Personally I think if we had 17M2 before the 17HMR it would be the more popular round. HMR was well established here before we got M2

What makes you think that Akeld?

 

gbal, I'd never even heard of the .17 Aguila! What weight were the bullets? Light and flat, or heavy with a mortar round trajectory!?

 

So what is or was the purpose of the .17M2, and the .17Aguila then??

 

What makes it better than the hmr or .22lr?? Or is the answer in it's lack of popularity?

[Akeld]

When you compare them, theres isn't much in it performance wise, ammo is cheaper and doesn't seem to suffer from neck splitting, people I know who have them never feel at a disadvantage with them. I have an HMR and will stick with it, I'm not saying one is better than the other I just think if M2 got here first the role would be reversed

[gbal]

17 Aguila based on 22 rf LongRifle case: 20 g@ 1850 fps

17 Mach 2 based on 22rf Stinger case 17g @ 2100 fps

17 HMR 17g @ 2550 fps

5mm Rem RF mag 38g @ 2100 fps

22Win RF mag 40g @ 2020 fps,30g @ 2200 fps

22 rf Stinger hyper velocity 32g @ 1640 fps

22 rf hi vel 36 @ 1250fps

 

Doesn't answer your question: what does the 17Mach 2 actually do,that others can't,but since when has that ever been the criterion.!? One issue is availability of other ammo,(17 Aguila didn't really make it,though it seems that conversion of a Ruger 10/22 would only have been an easy barrel change),and whether existing rifles can be easily converted to a new cartridge. 17s of course are not helped in UK,because they appeared later than the 'only 22rf' in semi auto laws.

Gbal

[Jamie]

Well thanks for the reply fella's. As I said, it was more an information exercise for me, in what the .17hm2 has to offer.

Cheers

Jamie

[Apex]

It was developed as a squirrel round - idea being it was fast and flat out to 70yds, then rapidly lost energy (as most shots were taken into the sky).

 

It caught on this side of the pond as a bunny round as squirrel hunting isn't big here. Offers very little compared to other rimfires now and ammo v expensive in my neck of the woods.

[gbal]

Thanks,Apex-yes,very niche here.But it is just a commercial venture into the fairly recent wildcat US world,with .10,.12,and .14s

The Eichelberger .10 Squirrel (22 Hornet based,7.5g@3920,and 10g @3250),together with the Eichelberger .12 Squirrel (30 carbine based,10g@4390) are perhaps a bit OTT for over here,but there were also .10 and .12 s based on rfLR 10g @2800 and and 22WMRF 11.5g@3500.

Mmmm...still a bit hot,but similar principle-fast and flat,but running out of steam pretty quickly too.

 

There is even a special export loading of blank rf based ammo for red squirrels only,due in UK at the beginning of April.

Gbal

[English]

Jamie, its not for target shooting, there is only expanding ammo but its a cracking round and has its niche between the other mentioned rimfire Rounds. Marine PMI and Andrew (US Posters to this forum) worked on the development of the .17 Aguilla and I had the good fortune to shoot with them in the US in 2004 maybe they will come along an add more to the thread. However ammo is 1/2 the price of HMR but nearly as capable - does not fully moderate as it is still supersonic but is not as noisy as HMR.

 

Gbal As a small calibre fan can you explain your last comment about "blank" ammo please + are you shooting those other small calibre rounds you mentioned?

[gbal]

Jamie, its not for target shooting, there is only expanding ammo but its a cracking round and has its niche between the other mentioned rimfire Rounds. Marine PMI and Andrew (US Posters to this forum) worked on the development of the .17 Aguilla and I had the good fortune to shoot with them in the US in 2004 maybe they will come along an add more to the thread. However ammo is 1/2 the price of HMR but nearly as capable - does not fully moderate as it is still supersonic but is not as noisy as HMR.

 

Gbal As a small calibre fan can you explain your last comment about "blank" ammo please + are you shooting those other small calibre rounds you mentioned?

17HMR 17@2550 100 zero 125 drop/drift" 10mph .9/4.7 150y 2.4/8.7

17 HM2 17@2100 100 zero 125y drop/drift " (10mph) 1.6/7.1 150y 4.4/10.3

22rf hyper 33@1500 00 zero 125 drop/drift" 10mph 3.7/10.9 150y 9.4/15.4

 

The 17s clearly have advantages over any 22lr...muzzle velocity assures that,esp in these very low BC bullets,and not many would advocate the ordinary 22rf(40@1150) as more than marginal beyond 100y,under normal conditions (some wind).

The 17HM2 seems to be up with the 7HMR in effective terms to perhaps 100y,but as above,it starts to feel the wind thereafter even more.A reasonable guide is that once either drop or especially drift get above 5 inches,the cartridge is becoming marginal.Under very good conditions,distance can be lazered,but wind vagaries 100+ yards away really make first shot hits begin to be iffy.

So the 17HM2 can put up a decent case for cost effective performance to a bit over 100y,but 125 is getting too far.Since 22rf has an effective envelope out to say 75y+,then the 17HM2 niche is really 75-125y,but of course is just as capable at shorter distances.

So it has it's place,but it's limited,and you would need to be shooting rather a lot of ammo for the cost to really be much of a factor,given you are giving up the longer shots-the reason for the increased performance in the first place.

 

OK,the Eichelberg very sub calibers are very much a specialist handloading proposition,based on small rifle/pistol centre fire cartridges-Ackley had the 17 Pee wee way back,50+ years ago,but there were very few if any smaller barrels.There are some others-the "Flea" eg.,and of course somewhat less exotics like the 14/222 Walker,a few of which are in use in UK,by small bore enthusiasts etc.As you know,you run into challenges in accessing components.And the 17 Aquila is not currently in production or over here,and even the splendid 5mm rem is rarely made (22WRFM is alternative). And that is one reason why this very limited niche attracts commercial cartridges like the 17HM2/17HMR-effectively similar,but rim fire and off the shelf.

Sorry,I have shot the 17 rem a lot-rabbits in some places were a fair bit more than 150 yards away-and it is a very pleasant cartridge,very effective and near zero recoil-within its effective envelope,a conservative 250y,perhaps.The suggestion that these hi vel very light sub calibres might be useful/safer for shooting squirrels,(more fricassee,less richochee) and the protected status of reds over here,was the idea of the blanks for legal/ethical hunting (clue-April 1st).

The Sako quad does sell reasonably well,though whether all the barrels get used much,I don't know-way too much overlap for most folks,really.And if a few pence per shot matters,even more so.No harm in choice,of course,but market forces operate too!

Gbal

[Jamie]

17HMR 17@2550 100 zero 125 drop/drift" 10mph .9/4.7 150y 2.4/8.7

17 HM2 17@2100 100 zero 125y drop/drift " (10mph) 1.6/7.1 150y 4.4/10.3

22rf hyper 33@1500 00 zero 125 drop/drift" 10mph 3.7/10.9 150y 9.4/15.4

 

The 17s clearly have advantages over any 22lr...muzzle velocity assures that,esp in these very low BC bullets,and not many would advocate the ordinary 22rf(40@1150) as more than marginal beyond 100y,under normal conditions (some wind).

The 17HM2 seems to be up with the 7HMR in effective terms to perhaps 100y,but as above,it starts to feel the wind thereafter even more.A reasonable guide is that once either drop or especially drift get above 5 inches,the cartridge is becoming marginal.Under very good conditions,distance can be lazered,but wind vagaries 100+ yards away really make first shot hits begin to be iffy.

So the 17HM2 can put up a decent case for cost effective performance to a bit over 100y,but 125 is getting too far.Since 22rf has an effective envelope out to say 75y+,then the 17HM2 niche is really 75-125y,but of course is just as capable at shorter distances.

So it has it's place,but it's limited,and you would need to be shooting rather a lot of ammo for the cost to really be much of a factor,given you are giving up the longer shots-the reason for the increased performance in the first place.

 

OK,the Eichelberg very sub calibers are very much a specialist handloading proposition,based on small rifle/pistol centre fire cartridges-Ackley had the 17 Pee wee way back,50+ years ago,but there were very few if any smaller barrels.There are some others-the "Flea" eg.,and of course somewhat less exotics like the 14/222 Walker,a few of which are in use in UK,by small bore enthusiasts etc.As you know,you run into challenges in accessing components.And the 17 Aquila is not currently in production or over here,and even the splendid 5mm rem is rarely made (22WRFM is alternative). And that is one reason why this very limited niche attracts commercial cartridges like the 17HM2/17HMR-effectively similar,but rim fire and off the shelf.

Sorry,I have shot the 17 rem a lot-rabbits in some places were a fair bit more than 150 yards away-and it is a very pleasant cartridge,very effective and near zero recoil-within its effective envelope,a conservative 250y,perhaps.The suggestion that these hi vel very light sub calibres might be useful/safer for shooting squirrels,(more fricassee,less richochee) and the protected status of reds over here,was the idea of the blanks for legal/ethical hunting (clue-April 1st).

The Sako quad does sell reasonably well,though whether all the barrels get used much,I don't know-way too much overlap for most folks,really.And if a few pence per shot matters,even more so.No harm in choice,of course,but market forces operate too!

Gbal

Interesting Read.

Thanks

Gbal