Fastest .22CF

[OSOK]

Mine is the 6mm WSM using the 55g Nosler's at 4,530 ft/sec not the 22 WSM . I have both the 220 Swift and the 22-243 Middlestead but using the 52g A-max in the Swift and the 90g Berger in the Middlestead . You wouldn't get 4,400 ft/sec using the 50g from a Middlestead without serious pressure issues . The gain would be approx 100 ft/sec over the 220 Swift or on par with an improved Swift .

 

OSOK

[tackb]

you could learn to range and dial ?

 

no matter how fast it is there will come a point where you need to adjust so I would go with less of a barrel burner and practice more?

[6.5shooter]

you could learn to range and dial ?

 

no matter how fast it is there will come a point where you need to adjust so I would go with less of a barrel burner and practice more?

 

Foxing under lamp time is a bit limited, fast and flat is the order of the day here for Seans application.

[tackb]

Foxing under lamp time is a bit limited, fast and flat is the order of the day here for Seans application.

 

 

 

I've lamped a lot of foxes , it's about teamwork.

 

52 amax at 4350 , the difference between 400 and 450m is 7" drop , I would range and correct personally rather than guess and miss. (this is just a realistic example , not what I use . I use a plain old 223)

[6.5shooter]

 

 

 

I've lamped a lot of foxes , it's about teamwork.

 

52 amax at 4350 , the difference between 400 and 450m is 7" drop , I would range and correct personally rather than guess and miss. (this is just a realistic example , not what I use . I use a plain old 223)

 

I think thats why he wants to take the guess work out of the situation and not miss.

Its not really about teamwork if lamping solo.

I too have shot alot of foxes under lamp using 223 and swift.

The 223 will kill 90% of the accurately but certain areas I take my swift cus I know its needed.

[tackb]

many different ways to skin a cat/fox !

 

I think people get too wrapped up and obsessed with 'super flat' cartridges (and super fast shotgun shells but that's another story) and if you compare them to 'standard' rounds the actual difference on target is less than many realise ?

[6.5shooter]

many different ways to skin a cat/fox !

 

I think people get too wrapped up and obsessed with 'super flat' cartridges (and super fast shotgun shells but that's another story) and if you compare them to 'standard' rounds the actual difference on target is less than many realise ?

 

True. But he asked for super flat.

[OSOK]

I don't think people get obsessed just excieted by them , 223's and such like are fine if that's what floats ya boat . I do feel that the velocity gain gives the advantage in wind and not just elevation and whilst it's probably only a couple of inches at 300 yards in a full value 10 mph between a swift and 223 , Still rather have it than not .

 

OSOK

[tackb]

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2F4-riders.com%2Fpics%2FMix6%2F3050BMG001.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ar15.com%2Farchive%2Ftopic.html%3Fb%3D6%26f%3D3%26t%3D375536&h=637&w=1088&tbnid=FNgEI9YgR76AZM%3A&zoom=1&docid=22pGqxdcrF4nwM&ei=hkkxU6T6J8eQhQf1noGIDQ&tbm=isch&ved=0CGUQhBwwBQ&iact=rc&dur=1742&page=1&start=0&ndsp=22

[gbal]

It's an interesting topic,and most posts have a point.

 

223 WSSM 55g @ 4060fps 200zero drop/drift at 300y is 4.5/8 inches,at 400y it's 14/15 inches

243 WSSM 55 3900 4/8 12/14

 

I don't have data on "6mm WSM"( could it be a 270WSM necked down?) but a Lazzeroni 6.17 (243) with a 55g manages 'only' 4200 fps-with 55g varget,and a 26"barrel.So 4400 fps is pretty impressive for speed-but what does speed mean at distance-see WSSM data-150+ more fps really makes no effective improvement.

 

243 win with 55@3800 and a 200 zero gives 4.5/8 inches,and a 250 zero,a +/- 2 inches trajectory to 300y,but is down 9 inches by 400.

22 243 Middlestead is pretty much identical.(This is not to criticise wildcatting-50 years ago the Middlestead did offer something ,but as with many other ballistic improvements(case shape,powders,bullets),what was really need was a 55g bullet in 243,which we now have for the 243w.

 

There is a case to be made for increased velocity,but not without limits(even if that were possible).Long range fox might benefit a little,and if you need fast fire no dial ,then fair enough-but very few such shots will be taken beyond 300y,and the above data simply show that velocities into the seriously 4000+ category don't give any real advantage.The wind of course is a far more serious problem-look at the drop/drift figures-again ultra velocity really cannot reduce drift to 'no adjustment' levels,and that's 8 inches at 300,let alone further out.

If you have a "no adjust" requirement,then 55@ 3800 is about enough,and you just don't shoot beyond 300y,and not beyond about 200 in wind.More fps don't really change the parameters in any realistic way.

But there is something to be said for having as much on your side as you can,so long as reality does not get lost,and confidence comes into it.

 

Gbal

[gbal]

It's an interesting topic,and most posts have a point.SORRY DUPLICATED _MEANT TO EDIT!

 

223 WSSM 55g @ 4060fps 200zero drop/drift at 300y is 4.5/8 inches,at 400y it's 14/15 inches

243 WSSM 55 3900 4/8 12/14

 

I don't have data on "6mm WSM"( could it be a 270WSM necked down?) but a Lazzeroni 6.17 (243) with a 55g manages 'only' 4200 fps-with 55g varget,and a 26"barrel.So 4400 fps is pretty impressive for speed-but what does speed mean at distance-see WSSM data-150+ more fps really makes no effective improvement.

 

243 win with 55@3800 and a 200 zero gives 4.5/8 inches,and a 250 zero,a +/- 2 inches trajectory to 300y,but is down 9 inches by 400.

22 243 Middlestead is pretty much identical.(This is not to criticise wildcatting-50 years ago the Middlestead did offer something ,but as with many other ballistic improvements(case shape,powders,bullets),what was really need was a 55g bullet in 243,which we now have for the 243w.

 

There is a case to be made for increased velocity,but not without limits(even if that were possible).Long range fox might benefit a little,and if you need fast fire no dial ,then fair enough-but very few such shots will be taken beyond 300y,and the above data simply show that velocities into the seriously 4000+ category don't give any real advantage.The wind of course is a far more serious problem-look at the drop/drift figures-again ultra velocity really cannot reduce drift to 'no adjustment' levels,and that's 8 inches at 300,let alone further out.

If you have a "no adjust" requirement,then 55@ 3800 is about enough,and you just don't shoot beyond 300y,and not beyond about 200 in wind.Beyond something like the above,more fps don't really change the parameters in any realistic way-it's very diminishing returns,and you are below your criteria anyhow.

But there is something to be said for having as much on your side as you can,so long as reality does not get lost,and confidence comes into it.

 

Gbal

[OSOK]

I can't imagine that anyone who has a passion for fast wildcats has them because they don't need to dial in ........ Do they ? There really is no getting away from the fact that the faster the same bullet travels from any delivery system then wind drift will be less , How much and if the shooter deems it to be worth while is their call . Sometimes there is no real reason for having or doing something other than you want to and that's enough reason in my book .

My 6mm WSM is a necked down 270 but using Winchester rather than Norma as the results were better .

 

 

 

OSOK

[tackb]

I can't imagine that anyone who has a passion for fast wildcats has them because they don't need to dial in ........ Do they ? There really is no getting away from the fact that the faster the same bullet travels from any delivery system then wind drift will be less , How much and if the shooter deems it to be worth while is their call . Sometimes there is no real reason for having or doing something other than you want to and that's enough reason in my book .

My 6mm WSM is a necked down 270 but using Winchester rather than Norma as the results were better .

 

 

 

OSOK

Just because is reason enough in my book to !

 

Enjoy !

[matchking]

The reason for this post was indeed to find something to point and squirt out 300 yards or so. Don't think team work has anything to do with what i am after. Jumpy foxes are jumpy foxes. We control the foxes on several large commercial shoots in exchange for deer stalking and pigeon shooting. Unfortuantley there is always foxes that get missed by myself and other poeple who lamp around us. Thus making jumpy foxes.Learning to range and dial is o.k if you have the time,We need to make the most of every chance we get. With 10's of thousands of birds in pens. sods law the one fox that is the wild sod is the one doing the damage. I have just invested in thermal and NV kit to try and catch up with them. The early results are showing promise.

Cheers

[gbal]

So long as it is safe (what are the pressures?),I don't disagree.The point the data is making is that once drift(and sometimes drop,if distance can't be measured) gets above some amount,then a miss becomes much much more likely,and this comes from human error in assessing the wind sufficiently accurately-especially at night! A10% wind error would actually be pretty good,and typically it might well be double that (12 mph is dialled in as 10 mph). The error then is too large for any attainable velocity to compensate for and ensure a hit. Consider 55 g 243@ 3800- by no means a hot load-SAAMI-the 10mph drift is a perhaps manageable 8 inches at 300y,15 inches at 400y,and 25 at 500. Just consider the 10% or 20% errors there...makes solid hits very iffy-and 600fps more at muzzle does not really help a lot by those ranges.Remember,we are talking about first shot hits under decidedly non optimal conditions.Reducing a 5 inch miss to a 3 inch miss is still a miss.

Ultra velocity makes the error less,but not enough less to make the shot a secure hit,rather it gives a slightly closer miss.

Enjoy the chronograph readings,but be realistic about the actual physics and human factors that operate at distance.

Gbal

[matchking]

I totaly agree wind drift is enemy of all shooters and there isn't really that you can do about it with velocity within reason. But trajectory you can it just takes the guess work out to a certain extent. It gives you one less thing to have to think about.

[gbal]

I totaly agree wind drift is enemy of all shooters and there isn't really that you can do about it with velocity within reason. But trajectory you can it just takes the guess work out to a certain extent. It gives you one less thing to have to think about.

 

Yes,trajectory drop is much less of an issue,if you know range,or can laser it.What extra velocity will give is reduced,but still substantial, need for dialling in ,at more extended ranges.The clicks are subject the laws of physics,gravity,mainly-so the issue is whether you dial in for say 8 inches drop,or maybe 5 inches ,with the ultra velocity- clicks if you will-and that is effectively the same process for both-the increased velocity does not really make much,if any difference (except a few less clicks),in the important sense that the specified velocity determined adjustment needs to be made.-it does not buy "no clicks",or 'laser flat'.Nothing does.

One clear practical evidence is the relatively small 'vertical' that long range target shooters can get,more a function of loading consistency/components than cartridge capacity (given enough such capacity).The real differentiator is wind judging ability,and there BC and velocity do reduce the effects of shooter error,but not to zero,as we all know,and field shooters don't often get sighters,and have an ethical requirement that target shooters do not. A 'less bad wound' just won't do.

Gbal

[OSOK]

Matchking , if like me you feel saving 2-3 inches of wind drift is a good move and don't give a rats ass on having a barrel burner that uses two to three times more powder than a 223 then do it .

If however you are trying to get a point and shoot out to 350 yards then don't as that rifle doesn't exist .

I don't feel that any good shooter should get the wind wrong by 5 inches out to 300 yards but 2-3 inches is more realistic and that's the advantage .

 

OSOK

[gbal]

OSOK,reading back through the posts on this,I think we agree pretty well.

Reducing wind drift by several inches,and therefore also reducing the error in wind reading,is worth consideration out to about 350y,as it keeps the figure closer to say 5 inches.At longer ranges,this advantage rapidly goes,as the drift/error just becomes too large.

Thee is pretty good data available on what a range of shooters,but importantly including some of the very best,using the very best equipment,can do from eg the Diggle Egg Shoot-or rather the 100,300,500 (?) prairie dog shoot targets that preceed. Scores at 300 are by no means perfect,and even less so by 500,where quite a lot of shots don't score on the (approx) 8x3 inch body.There aren't (m)any bullets doing 4400 fps,though!

As you imply,irrespective of other costs etc,there is a pretty sharp drop off in hit probability as we get into 400+ territory,but the original "no adjust" 300y cartridge is possible,when there is very little/no wind.

Gbal

[tackb]

300yd cartridge already exists , in numerous forms , 22-250 , 220 swift , 243 (55nbt)

[OSOK]

gbal , I feel that any advantage at any distance is worth having , on a fox or target board . You only have to look to FTR & F open to see shooters pushing the velocity limits in the hope that any bad call of wind will not push them out into a four but still hold a five etc .

Shooting is alot to do with peace of mind and knowing that your round is good in the wind instills confidence , however the flip side is that certain people may feel that this gives them the ability to take the 350 & 400 yarders which it doesn't .

 

OSOK

[gbal]

gbal , I feel that any advantage at any distance is worth having , on a fox or target board . You only have to look to FTR & F open to see shooters pushing the velocity limits in the hope that any bad call of wind will not push them out into a four but still hold a five etc .

Shooting is alot to do with peace of mind and knowing that your round is good in the wind instills confidence , however the flip side is that certain people may feel that this gives them the ability to take the 350 & 400 yarders which it doesn't .

 

OSOK

I agree. sometimes target shooters have to shoot in winds that a foxer might not,and at greater distances-out to 1000y.

I just mentioned the diggle shoot,as actually seeing ground hog targets with holes not on the ground ho,or no holes at all,is pretty good evidence.Plenty target shooters of course get 4s,and worse,but that would be at ranges way beyond 300/400y.(600-1000-see fclass, even with pro rata bigger bulls.)

 

Tacb-yes,agreed-the cartridges named are pretty good ,without 'hot loading'.But the 'requirement' for a 'point blank/no adjust'-say +/- 3 inches out to 300 is a bit more demanding of course,and 55g@4000 will barely make -4 " drop at 300,and ditto 5 mph wind.

The 'no adjust' is probably unobtainable at 400y+,and def a dream if there is any wind!

 

But there is much to be said for some choice (velocity etc),as the problem becomes more and more intractable,except for skill at the very highest level.

 

Gbal

[tackb]

55g(243) @ 3910 , 250m zero , +2.25@ 150m -3.05@ 300m (factory Winchester 55g silvertip), 40g 22-250 and 220 swift are slightly better.

 

no adjust is optimistic to 400!

[gbal]

55g(243) @ 3910 , 250m zero , +2.25@ 150m -3.05@ 300m (factory Winchester 55g silvertip), 40g 22-250 and 220 swift are slightly better.

 

no adjust is optimistic to 400!

Agreed- I shoot 58g 243,(usually zeroed at 500) but it won't meet the windage "no adjust" requirements,since it's drifted 9 inches in a 10mph wind at 300...that's what makes the original ask optimistic,though I suggested 'unobtainable',in even modest wind 5mph) ditto essentially,+/- an inch,the Swift etc-they just can't get down to 3 inches drift.

If we are allowed some clicks,or hold off,fine of course,but that was never interesting to explore,except in the sense of who can do a 500y 25 inch hold off...maybe in the dark...with 90+% success...

250-350 yards seems to be about where some real usable gain comes from hyper velocity..(most cartridges 223 and up are ok to 250,the super fast stretch to 350...and then we begin to struggle with wind.I am not talking about formal target shooting,of course,or 'walking in shots.)

Gbal

[tackb]

I can overcome the wind to a degree by using my 300rum with 168amax at 3450 , not the most practical of foxing rigs though!