sheldon cooper Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 You wont go wrong with a more common .22 hornet and it will be far easier to find componants for. Mine zeroed at 130 is point and shoot on a bunnies head 30-160 yards, 2 moa low at 200. This is using 12.2 grains of powder and a 45 grain sierra bullet. The gun itself with a good T12 scout moderator is actually less disturbing than a HMR with a SAK ( it will totally replace a HMR and do so much more besides).Energy wise it produces more punch than a .22 WMR muzzle energy out at 160 yds and I have yet to junk any rabbit (it tends to make a mess of the head and not even effect the shoulders) Hare (October onwards for me) can be shot in the head, neck or chest. Foxes well its got the grunt to do more but placement needs to be decent so as we are dealing with 5 moa of wind at 200 FV 10mph at 200 I call it a day at that in the day and shorter at night. Inherently it is very accurate mine rarely slips out of sub MOA at 200 but there are a few things different in loading for it.£14 a box of 100 bullets, brass exceeds 10 re-loadings with LIlGun powder and 6-700 re-loads per 1 lb tub! Just ran your figurs through my ballistic app on my ipad. the numbers it gave where very close to yours. I think a hornet would work fine for what I need. And I do like the idea of cheep reloads. I have read several times on shooting forums that they are very good and underrated. That said It does get windy at the farm that's why I was thinking fireball to handle heavier bullets that bit faster. Suppose this is irelivant if rifles are like hens teeth tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 It seems that nosler are now making .221 brass. there are loads of bullets to choose form. I am after a fox / vermin gun ( have been for ages) but been told no to larger rounds like .222/223. But have been told that a hornet would be ok. If rifle where available in .221 fire ball it may be the perfect calibre if I was given the nod by plod. What is the problem with the FEO/FLO and calibre choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldon cooper Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 What is the problem with the FEO/FLO and calibre choice. He said I could only have what was stated in the guidelines centerfires wise for fox and vermine. Which is .22hornet / 17remington. 3.17 The rifle cartridge most commonly used to shoot ground game and vermin is .22 rimfire. If a combination rifle/shot gun (such as a German Drilling) is used, the rifle calibre should be .22 rimfire. More powerful rounds such as .17 Remington and .22 Hornet are suitable for ground game and vermin, and may be considered if the applicant also intends to shoot fox to avoid possession of a further gun. Expanding ammunition may be granted for shooting vermin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyw Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 How about the .221 fire ball. Never heard of one in the uk but seems popular in the states. i shoot a .17fb and used to have a 14fb or 14/221. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 He said I could only have what was stated in the guidelines centerfires wise for fox and vermine. Which is .22hornet / 17remington. 3.17 The rifle cartridge most commonly used to shoot ground game and vermin is .22 rimfire. If a combination rifle/shot gun (such as a German Drilling) is used, the rifle calibre should be .22 rimfire. More powerful rounds such as .17 Remington and .22 Hornet are suitable for ground game and vermin, and may be considered if the applicant also intends to shoot fox to avoid possession of a further gun. Expanding ammunition may be granted for shooting vermin. so why is the 223 /22.250 the most popular rounds in the country,i'd have him on that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 so why is the 223 /22.250 the most popular rounds in the country,i'd have him on that one Mainly because its pointless and counter productive unless you want to go to court I suppose. Been there on similar and was advised it was likely my FAC might be suspended totally pending outcome, is it worth it ? we have our own associations to thank for these guidance notes with their own prejudices assumptions and myths drafted in. Hopefully soon to all come to an end with ALQ becoming standardised over time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 the point i was trying to make was why we all are not foxing with a 17 rem or 22 hornet.i get what your saying about being counter productive but you can have a word with out going to court surly,when my son wanted to replace his 17hmr last year for foxes our flo said 22 lr was recomended in the guidelines for foxing and i told him i thought that was a load off bull and that he was putting in for the 223 and thats what he got no problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldon cooper Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 so why is the 223 /22.250 the most popular rounds in the country,i'd have him on that one It's not that I can't have one I just can't shoot rabbits/ crows with it. I would love to see the ALQ condition become standard procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 It's not that I can't have one I just can't shoot rabbits/ crows with it. I would love to see the ALQ condition become standard procedure. right i'm with you,never ceases to amaze me how different forces have their own veiws on this subject i wanted a 6br and was told no go. going to push them at some point on this one too,i'll just ask for their reasons in writing when i'm ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 ATM I have .243 win for foxing and deer stalking although I was told if I got a smaller CF they would take foxing off the 243 unless deer stalking. How they can justify that I don't know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldon cooper Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 ATM I have .243 win for foxing and deer stalking although I was told if I got a smaller CF they would take foxing off the 243 unless deer stalking. How they can justify that I don't know No idea pall hopefully these recent changes will do some good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 ATM I have .243 win for foxing and deer stalking although I was told if I got a smaller CF they would take foxing off the 243 unless deer stalking. How they can justify that I don't know Yes, I have been there on that one. Lancs have that 1. dedicated fox rifle 2. deer and fox rifle or 3. fox and vermin rifle thing it seems. .17 rem and .22 Hornet being the latter. I have yet to find why it is safe to shoot a fox at night yet not safe to shoot a crow in daylight with a dedicated fox rifle. As always some have different terms within the same area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 ATM I have .243 win for foxing and deer stalking although I was told if I got a smaller CF they would take foxing off the 243 unless deer stalking. How they can justify that I don't know Does you licence state "may be used for fox while deerstalking" or do you have a " may be used for deerstalking" and then a separate " may be used for fox" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 ATM it says for fox and deer stalking. I had a 308 that said shall be used for deer stalking and fox whilst deer stalking. the later is what I was told would apply to the 243 if I got a 22 CF for foxing crows etc. So I'm safe to use a 243 for foxes now but not if I have a smaller CF. There is not much logic to it. I did read something on BASC along the lines of if it doesn't say you can't do it then you can. My ticket says quarry fox the rifle xxxxx and 243 sound mod and ammo shall be used for shooting fox and zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. for deer replace the word fox with deer. previous tickets have said something to the effect of shall be used for shooting foxes and deer zeroing etc ONLY. The first condition doesn't stop you shooting something other than fox and deer on the basis it doesn't say you can't. A letter has been sent by Chief Constable Andy Marsh about the subject of conditions to all Chief Constables. to take off (not apply) unnecessary conditions, to be fair to FAC holders and make the process more efficient/cost effective. Lets hope they take it on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 ATM it says for fox and deer stalking. I had a 308 that said shall be used for deer stalking and fox whilst deer stalking. the later is what I was told would apply to the 243 if I got a 22 CF for foxing crows etc. So I'm safe to use a 243 for foxes now but not if I have a smaller CF. There is not much logic to it. I did read something on BASC along the lines of if it doesn't say you can't do it then you can. My ticket says quarry fox the rifle xxxxx and 243 sound mod and ammo shall be used for shooting fox and zeroing on ranges or land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot. for deer replace the word fox with deer. previous tickets have said something to the effect of shall be used for shooting foxes and deer zeroing etc ONLY. The first condition doesn't stop you shooting something other than fox and deer on the basis it doesn't say you can't. A letter has been sent by Chief Constable Andy Marsh about the subject of conditions to all Chief Constables. to take off (not apply) unnecessary conditions, to be fair to FAC holders and make the process more efficient/cost effective. Lets hope they take it on board. OK: there might be a case for rephrasing etc-it is very difficult to cover everything if he can,ask a solicitor,and he'll still be talking about it an hour later.... But the idea that if (FAC) does not explicitly say you cannot shoot something,you can interpret this to mean you can is very dodgy,grammatically,legally,or logically.(If indeed that was your intended message...?) If the (FAC) had to list everything legal and not,it could be very long list indeed,hence the useful word 'only'-ie permission is given to shoot the named items,only-ie nothing else. 'Vermin' note is a bit of a 'weasel' word (as it were!)-there is probably no perfect definition,other than a list,really! I think there might be some enquiries made too if someone shot a puma in the UK,though very very few FACs will say the holder explicitly cannot. 'Explicit' is one key word-and well worded conditions will be fairly watertight-which does not always square with the holder"s desires ,of course.If the permission says "x" can be shot,fine for "x",but not "y" just because that is not explicity excluded,and if it says "x only" then that is clear-"x" and nothing else.There has been some progress,as in 'any legal quarry'-so i's not all negative. OK -as you imply,correctly,the complication is in trying to tie quarry to calibre,and minimise possessions,and avoiding an 'anything goes' policy,and together,these can lead to some anomalies,as forum members have pointed out. It is not the easiest area to get right,but that does not mean it has to be wrong!! Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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